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Survery/Debate: Arming Airline Pilots

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Oh good grief.

sstearns2 said:
*I'm trying to get this word in general circulation. It's a non-gender specific singular pronoun. his or her - hes
*chuckle* Good luck with that. The English language does not have a neuter case for undefined gender adjectives. "Hes" is a travashamockery. If you want non-gender possessive adjectives, speak a Romance language (French, Italian, etc.) where possessive adjectives usually do not distinguish the owner's gender [e.g. French "son manteau" means "his/her/its coat" dependent upon the owner - it's a multipurpose adjective]. The Queen's English is not up for revision by some fruitcake neuter cult. "He" and "his" have always been the default pronoun and adjective for a non-specified person and his possessions. Welcome to English 101. Feminism 101 is across the hall.
 
Last edited:
ATL2CDG -

Now, your last post I'll agree with completely.

sstearns - I think pilots are disciplined enough to take care of the primary task at hand , i.e. flying the airplane (and landing if that became necessary). I believe we all know a common terrorist ploy would be to draw the pilots out of the cockpit, and I'm sure the FFDO training addresses these scenarios.
 
The absurdity of it all

ATL2CDG--Thank you.

Whatever happened to the sanctity of language? Why can't we just speak it the way it's supposed to be spoken? Yes language is dynamic and fluid but let's be reasonable.

For lack of a better term, I consider myself quite liberal and progressive but I have to put my foot down on some of these meaningless and absurd modifications to culture.

Look, when I use 'him' or 'he' as a generic third person I happen to include in my thought all of the women that are incidental to the discussion. It's implied.

Likewise, all women should feel included in my use of 'him' or 'he' and not feel slighted by what they may perceive as an explicit omission.

It's true, I admit, 200 years ago women were excluded from voting, business and clergy, but things are different now. I ask: What's more important? Substantive change? Or semantics?

Pick your fight wisely or our side will come off like the lunatic fringe it's already approaching.

And speaking of fights, I also believe guns have no place on an aircraft but quite frankly I'm sick of this debate. It's been beaten to death elsewhere.

In sum, my opinion is that all new airliners should be made with a sealed cockpit (not flight deck) with a separate crew entrance from the outside that is totally inaccesible in flight.

I'm sorry, but pilots would then have to pour their own coffee.
 
If you look at the statistics they show that a handgun is about 10 times more likely to be used against it's owner than in hes* protection.
Those stats are an aggregate of handgun owners. A study of professional, highly trained, handgun owners will show different results.


I also believe that a pilot who has a gun is much more likely to be unable to overcome the psychological need to go back and try to 'take care of things' in the event of a hijacking. The armed pilot is much more likely to open the door hesself than focus on getting the airplane on the ground ASAP.

Not true. FFDO's are trained to absolutely NOT do this.


If we're going to have weapons on the airplane they should be tasers and the F/A's should be trained on them.

Nothing like going to a gunfight with a stick...
 
At 6'1" and a fat 240 lbs., I've always had personal committment to defend the flight deck with my life if the situation warranted. I may be nothing but a fancy sky waitress to many pilots and most passengers, but I've taken a personal oath to defend my crew, not myself, above all else in the event of a terrorist attack. I would sincerely hope that my physical strength and personal wits would allow me to subdue an attacker thereby negating the need for a FFDO. However, his being said, many people have made good points in the thread and I'm tempted to jump the fence and support the FFDO program.

In any case, my heart's "got a black belt in judo... and the boots to match."
 
I have all types of guns, and enjoy shooting them and hunting, but I don't keep one loaded in the house for protection because I don't want my kids getting to them.

At first I was against pilots having guns in the cockpit, mostly because I thought it was an ALPA ego thing and because most of the largest proponents of them I work with are goof-balls.

But now I am for pilots having guns. We all have heard of the lack of integrity of TSA agents and have witnessed their incompetence. The concept of airline security as taught by the FAA and as given to us in recurrent is the so-called "layers-of-swiss cheese-concept". The theory is that at every level of security there are holes, so you layer as many levels of security as possible in the hopes that no hole goes all the way through. My complete lack of confidence in those responsible for our security due to their inability, as well as their lack of integrity that we hear of and witness, makes me want to be more proactive in the security of my airplane.

The only thing that keeps me from applying myself are the hoops that go along with it. The lock box, NDB, putting it away to pee, and the hassles for commuting , etc.
 
ATL2CDG,

Which of the following would take longer to breach;

1. The "bulletproof" cockpit door

or,

2. The metal exterior locked door at your average gas station. You know, the one protecting the bowl filled to the rim with logs and the stuffed up urinal.


"I would sincerely hope that my physical strength and personal wits would allow me to subdue an attacker thereby negating the need for a FFDO."

Good luck subduing an attacker armed with a broken off wine bottle.
 
C-150ETOPS said:
Good luck subduing an attacker armed with a broken off wine bottle.
Thanks for your vote of confidence... I'll remember that the next time I piss in.... I mean... fix you a cup of coffee.

I'll have access to all the same cabin weapon-paraphernalia as the would-be attacker. What makes you think that he'll be any faster, stronger or brighter than I? He's going to be motivated by some paranoid, fruitless politico-religious stupidity. I'll have the lives of my crew, a 100+ passengers and my daughter foremost on my mind. I don't have to have stripes on my shoulders or a gun in my hand to kick @ss.
 
ATL2CDG said:
Thanks for your vote of confidence... I'll remember that the next time I piss in.... I mean... fix you a cup of coffee.

I'll have access to all the same cabin weapon-paraphernalia as the would-be attacker. What makes you think that he'll be any faster, stronger or brighter than I? He's going to be motivated by some paranoid, fruitless politico-religious stupidity. I'll have the lives of my crew, a 100+ passengers and my daughter foremost on my mind. I don't have to have stripes on my shoulders or a gun in my hand to kick @ss.
aren't you the guy from France? :)
 
rumpletumbler said:
aren't you the guy from France? :)
*bashes head into wall*

I'M NOT FROM FRANCE!

Good grief; you people are dense!
 
ATL2CDG said:
*bashes head into wall*

I'M NOT FROM FRANCE!

Good grief; you people are dense!
haha....but the guy talking about how he is gonna kick somebody's ass much like the guy who talks about how well endowed he is....is usually the one who wakes up lying in the floor bleeding or going home alone....whichever one works.
 
rumpletumbler said:
haha....but the guy talking about how he is gonna kick somebody's ass much like the guy who talks about how well endowed he is....is usually the one who wakes up lying in the floor bleeding or going home alone....whichever one works.
Then that statement should equally apply to all the gun-tottin' pilots on ths board as well, eh? I never said I would reign victorous over a terrorist-filled cabin; I did say that I would do all I could to defend the flight deck, including sacrifice my life if necessary.

I think you're just trying to b*tch for b*tching's sakes... Give it up.
 
ATL2CDG said:
Then that statement should equally apply to all the gun-tottin' pilots on ths board as well, eh? I never said I would reign victorous over a terrorist-filled cabin; I did say that I would do all I could to defend the flight deck, including sacrifice my life if necessary.

I think you're just trying to b*tch for b*tching's sakes... Give it up.
Oh yeah....I'd much rather Macho Coooooon Dog from the Carolina's go after the terrorists with a plastic corkscrew than somebody who has actually been in combat sitting up front with a Sig 220 or similar.
 
rumpletumbler said:
Oh yeah....I'd much rather Macho Coooooon Dog from the Carolina's go after the terrorists with a plastic corkscrew than somebody who has actually been in combat sitting up front with a Sig 220 or similar.
Macho Coon Dog from the Carolinas? Uh, ok...?

Fine, whenever a terrorist makes known his presence and attempts to breach the flight deck I won't do anything. I'll sit my jumpseat and offer the guy pretzels and a Sprite. I'm glad you value the responsibilities and duties of cabin crew and my personal committment to your welfare.

Oh wait! You've never worked in an airline environment and have no grasp of the ideas of teamwork, responsibility and duty. It's all just target ranges and beer bottles for you.
 
ATL2CDG said:
Macho Coon Dog from the Carolinas? Uh, ok...?

Fine, whenever a terrorist makes known his presence and attempts to breach the flight deck I won't do anything. I'll sit my jumpseat and offer the guy pretzels and a Sprite. I'm glad you value the responsibilities and duties of cabin crew and my personal committment to your welfare.

Oh wait! You've never worked in an airline environment and have no grasp of the ideas of teamwork, responsibility and duty. It's all just target ranges and beer bottles for you.
You crack me up........You are an easy mark. Relax I'm just pushing your buttons.
 
rumpletumbler said:
You crack me up........You are an easy mark. Relax I'm just pushing your buttons.
Oh, I'm fine... I haven't had sex in longer than I care to remember and I've gotta have something to release all the rage... Nothing like screaming at a laptop computer, cursing at a complete stranger and typing in rage to make up for not being able to screw Hale Berry or Jessica Simpson.
 
Then that statement should equally apply to all the gun-tottin' pilots on ths board as well, eh? I never said I would reign victorous over a terrorist-filled cabin; I did say that I would do all I could to defend the flight deck, including sacrifice my life if necessary.
If you have a fire in the cabin, would you prefer to have a fire extinguisher or a blanket? Which is more effective at fighting a fire...........

After the terrorists kill you and breach the cockpit, would the pax, office workers etc. be better off if the pilots aren't armed?


The FFDO program is a reasonable, effective solution to the problem.
 
Guns in the cockpit?

Thought I would put a little “old” wisdom in this argument, since when BD Cooper did his little gig over OR and WA in the 70’s, I had been flying 121 for nearly a decade.

In the “good ole days” there was no security at all. Then the fun began, some one in Cuba would commandeer a Cuban aircraft, say take me to the US and they were greeted and hailed as a “hero” cause they wanted freedom. Then some one would take over a US aircraft (mostly Eastern AL) and say “take us to Havana” and they were hailed as hero in Cuba. Enter the metal detectors that were a big joke, hardly ever worked. To the flight crew they were some things we just walked around on the way to the gate.

At that time the estimate of the day among the flight crews was that 28 to 30 % of the cockpit crews carried a handgun in the flight bag because there was no way that some hijacker was going to take a plane away from them. I never carried one cause I flew cargo and did not feel threatened and so did not feel the need, but knew lots of guys who did. Got to remember that most of us had come from the military where we did carry a weapon anytime we flew.

Then came the day in 1987 when a former fired airline employee, using an old ID, and a back door got onto a BA 146 at PSA, killed the front end crew then crashed the AC around Paso Robles Calif. After that date the FAA made everybody go thru the metal detectors and there by disarmed the cockpit crews in the US.

The official FAA gospel was “do what ever the hijacker wants you to do” “don’t be a hero” never dreaming that suicide was the order of the day on 9/11. All of this leads us up to the issue that what happened on 9/11 was contributed to if not directly the fault of the federal government and the FAA. Think about it, had one third of the crewmember had a gun would 9/11 have happened? Probably not as bad as it was.

So what about guns in the cockpit? After much opposition and foot dragging the feds have allowed those who wish to retain the “last line of defense” to become trained to use firearms. Remember the federal government idea is to just shoot you down and that is not what I consider a reasonable last line. In passing I feel that the passengers would never let another 9/11 happen so it probably is a moot point. Those who fear that a firearm could be taken away from a cockpit member should be more fearful of one of the sky marshals being disarmed.

To those of you who are anti gunners, over 2.5 MILLION times a year a firearm is used (mostly without becoming put into the paper) to avert a crime. The idea that a gun is 10 times more likely to be used against the owner is completely false. Aldof Hitler disarmed the entire country of Germany and then declared that a new era of peace and safety had arrived. Australia, England and Canada have proven when you take away the guns from law-abiding persons, only out laws have guns and the enormous rise in crime in those countries confirms this.
 
wms said:
The only thing that keeps me from applying myself are the hoops that go along with it. The lock box, NDB, putting it away to pee, and the hassles for commuting , etc.
True- there are a lot of hassles associated with the program. The way I see it, all the hurdles the TSA has thrown up in front of the program won't stop pilots who want to have every possible resource to defend their aircraft. FFDOs have to put up with some hassles (and also receive some benefits) in the course of their duties, but it's an easy decision to make in my book.

Right now, there's an American on patrol in Fallujah who also has to go thorough a lot of hassles. He and every person who is actively participating in this war make sacrifices to some degree. Those sacrifices asked of FFDOs are minor in comparison, and they shouldn't stop anyone who wants to contribute to the security of the country.
 
old_av8er,

EXCELLENT post!

The only statement I'd like to clarify is:

After that date the FAA made everybody go thru the metal detectors and there by disarmed the cockpit crews in the US.
Everybody was not made to submit to pax screening after PSA 1771. Only FLIGHT CREW!!!!!!

Pretty ironic that a ramper commits mass murder, yet, they STILL go in the back door...........
 

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