Survery/Debate: Arming Airline Pilots

[rumpletumbler]

*bashes head into wall*

I'M NOT FROM FRANCE!

Good grief; you people are dense!

haha....but the guy talking about how he is gonna kick somebody's ass much like the guy who talks about how well endowed he is....is usually the one who wakes up lying in the floor bleeding or going home alone....whichever one works.

 

[ATL2CDG]

haha....but the guy talking about how he is gonna kick somebody's ass much like the guy who talks about how well endowed he is....is usually the one who wakes up lying in the floor bleeding or going home alone....whichever one works.

Then that statement should equally apply to all the gun-tottin' pilots on ths board as well, eh? I never said I would reign victorous over a terrorist-filled cabin; I did say that I would do all I could to defend the flight deck, including sacrifice my life if necessary.

I think you're just trying to b*tch for b*tching's sakes... Give it up.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Then that statement should equally apply to all the gun-tottin' pilots on ths board as well, eh? I never said I would reign victorous over a terrorist-filled cabin; I did say that I would do all I could to defend the flight deck, including sacrifice my life if necessary.

I think you're just trying to b*tch for b*tching's sakes... Give it up.

Oh yeah....I'd much rather Macho Coooooon Dog from the Carolina's go after the terrorists with a plastic corkscrew than somebody who has actually been in combat sitting up front with a Sig 220 or similar.

 

[ATL2CDG]

Oh yeah....I'd much rather Macho Coooooon Dog from the Carolina's go after the terrorists with a plastic corkscrew than somebody who has actually been in combat sitting up front with a Sig 220 or similar.

Macho Coon Dog from the Carolinas? Uh, ok...?

Fine, whenever a terrorist makes known his presence and attempts to breach the flight deck I won't do anything. I'll sit my jumpseat and offer the guy pretzels and a Sprite. I'm glad you value the responsibilities and duties of cabin crew and my personal committment to your welfare.

Oh wait! You've never worked in an airline environment and have no grasp of the ideas of teamwork, responsibility and duty. It's all just target ranges and beer bottles for you.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Macho Coon Dog from the Carolinas? Uh, ok...?

Fine, whenever a terrorist makes known his presence and attempts to breach the flight deck I won't do anything. I'll sit my jumpseat and offer the guy pretzels and a Sprite. I'm glad you value the responsibilities and duties of cabin crew and my personal committment to your welfare.

Oh wait! You've never worked in an airline environment and have no grasp of the ideas of teamwork, responsibility and duty. It's all just target ranges and beer bottles for you.

You crack me up........You are an easy mark. Relax I'm just pushing your buttons.

 

[ATL2CDG]

You crack me up........You are an easy mark. Relax I'm just pushing your buttons.

Oh, I'm fine... I haven't had sex in longer than I care to remember and I've gotta have something to release all the rage... Nothing like screaming at a laptop computer, cursing at a complete stranger and typing in rage to make up for not being able to screw Hale Berry or Jessica Simpson.

 

[Tripower455]

Then that statement should equally apply to all the gun-tottin' pilots on ths board as well, eh? I never said I would reign victorous over a terrorist-filled cabin; I did say that I would do all I could to defend the flight deck, including sacrifice my life if necessary.

If you have a fire in the cabin, would you prefer to have a fire extinguisher or a blanket? Which is more effective at fighting a fire...........

After the terrorists kill you and breach the cockpit, would the pax, office workers etc. be better off if the pilots aren't armed?


The FFDO program is a reasonable, effective solution to the problem.

 

[old_av8er]

Guns in the cockpit?

Thought I would put a little “old” wisdom in this argument, since when BD Cooper did his little gig over OR and WA in the 70’s, I had been flying 121 for nearly a decade.

In the “good ole days” there was no security at all. Then the fun began, some one in Cuba would commandeer a Cuban aircraft, say take me to the US and they were greeted and hailed as a “hero” cause they wanted freedom. Then some one would take over a US aircraft (mostly Eastern AL) and say “take us to Havana” and they were hailed as hero in Cuba. Enter the metal detectors that were a big joke, hardly ever worked. To the flight crew they were some things we just walked around on the way to the gate.

At that time the estimate of the day among the flight crews was that 28 to 30 % of the cockpit crews carried a handgun in the flight bag because there was no way that some hijacker was going to take a plane away from them. I never carried one cause I flew cargo and did not feel threatened and so did not feel the need, but knew lots of guys who did. Got to remember that most of us had come from the military where we did carry a weapon anytime we flew.

Then came the day in 1987 when a former fired airline employee, using an old ID, and a back door got onto a BA 146 at PSA, killed the front end crew then crashed the AC around Paso Robles Calif. After that date the FAA made everybody go thru the metal detectors and there by disarmed the cockpit crews in the US.

The official FAA gospel was “do what ever the hijacker wants you to do” “don’t be a hero” never dreaming that suicide was the order of the day on 9/11. All of this leads us up to the issue that what happened on 9/11 was contributed to if not directly the fault of the federal government and the FAA. Think about it, had one third of the crewmember had a gun would 9/11 have happened? Probably not as bad as it was.

So what about guns in the cockpit? After much opposition and foot dragging the feds have allowed those who wish to retain the “last line of defense” to become trained to use firearms. Remember the federal government idea is to just shoot you down and that is not what I consider a reasonable last line. In passing I feel that the passengers would never let another 9/11 happen so it probably is a moot point. Those who fear that a firearm could be taken away from a cockpit member should be more fearful of one of the sky marshals being disarmed.

To those of you who are anti gunners, over 2.5 MILLION times a year a firearm is used (mostly without becoming put into the paper) to avert a crime. The idea that a gun is 10 times more likely to be used against the owner is completely false. Aldof Hitler disarmed the entire country of Germany and then declared that a new era of peace and safety had arrived. Australia, England and Canada have proven when you take away the guns from law-abiding persons, only out laws have guns and the enormous rise in crime in those countries confirms this.

 

[EagleRJ]

The only thing that keeps me from applying myself are the hoops that go along with it. The lock box, NDB, putting it away to pee, and the hassles for commuting , etc.

True- there are a lot of hassles associated with the program. The way I see it, all the hurdles the TSA has thrown up in front of the program won't stop pilots who want to have every possible resource to defend their aircraft. FFDOs have to put up with some hassles (and also receive some benefits) in the course of their duties, but it's an easy decision to make in my book.

Right now, there's an American on patrol in Fallujah who also has to go thorough a lot of hassles. He and every person who is actively participating in this war make sacrifices to some degree. Those sacrifices asked of FFDOs are minor in comparison, and they shouldn't stop anyone who wants to contribute to the security of the country.

 

[Tripower455]

old_av8er,

EXCELLENT post!

The only statement I'd like to clarify is:

After that date the FAA made everybody go thru the metal detectors and there by disarmed the cockpit crews in the US.

Everybody was not made to submit to pax screening after PSA 1771. Only FLIGHT CREW!!!!!!

Pretty ironic that a ramper commits mass murder, yet, they STILL go in the back door...........

 

[wms]

True- there are a lot of hassles associated with the program. The way I see it, all the hurdles the TSA has thrown up in front of the program won't stop pilots who want to have every possible resource to defend their aircraft. FFDOs have to put up with some hassles (and also receive some benefits) in the course of their duties, but it's an easy decision to make in my book.

Right now, there's an American on patrol in Fallujah who also has to go thorough a lot of hassles. He and every person who is actively participating in this war make sacrifices to some degree. Those sacrifices asked of FFDOs are minor in comparison, and they shouldn't stop anyone who wants to contribute to the security of the country.

I did my time with Uncle Sam and know about the "hassles" of serving. The difference is, in the military we had a support system that did just that, support us. We had the routine annoyances, but it wasn't a system designed to hamm-string us. The FFDO program on the other hand intentionally makes it difficult to do what they "hire" you to do. When they get sensible about it, I'll jump in.

As far as Tasers go. Terrorists work in teams. A taser is good for one shot at a time. You can't fire it at one guy after another. If you have one taser and five guys rush the cockpit, four are gonna get there. The fact that there is one on the plane is not a deterent, because the mission will still be completed. The fact that there may be guns on planes are a deterent. Not because the terrorist might die, because they don't care if they do, but because the mission might fail, and that is a fate worse than death.

 

[Birddog]

For ATL2CDG and others opposed to arming pilots:

What will you do when you have a crewmember who is an FFDO? Will you fly with them, request to be removed from the trip, or call in sick?

That said, I very much support arming pilots. I have applied for the program. In my opinion, if the situation ever arises where the gun is to be used, the situation has already gotten about as bad as its going to get. If a terrorist manages to take the gun away from me, he now has the option of shooting me or stabbing me. At this point any fight the flight attendants and passengers would have put up is pointless, some of them are probably dead and the bad guys are in the cockpit. The idea of a completely sealed cockpit with a seperate, exterior entrance is a great idea, but realistically, it is something that has to be designed in from the beginning and will take decades to bring to the entire commercial fleet. Until then, remember that the door is a retrofit that was probably designed and installed by the lowest bidder. It has its weak points. I look at having a gun in the cockpit in the same way I look at having a spare tire in my car, I hope I never need it and haven't this far, but if I do I will be very glad to have it.

 

[MDPilot]

I just finished the FFDO training last Sat. When I first heard of the movement of training from Glenco, GA to Artesia, NM, I thought it was part of the pilot harassment program to discourage participation. After going through training, I have nothing but praise for the facilities and training instructors in Artesia. A very eye-opening experience, it would be valuable to spend twice as long in training (but not practical.) For those who think they are protected behind their "hardened" doors, think again. For those who would not fly with an FFDO as the other pilot, all airlines are required not to hinder FFDOs in the performance of their law enforcement duties as they fly, so the opposing crewmember must be removed from the flight. I won't answer any specific questions on the type of training accomplished, or specifics of the SOP, but will entertain general questions. An outstanding program IMHO.

 

[Tripower455]

I won't answer any specific questions on the type of training accomplished, or specifics of the SOP, but will entertain general questions.

How's Water Tiger?

 

[ATL2CDG]

For ATL2CDG and others opposed to arming pilots:

What will you do when you have a crewmember who is an FFDO? Will you fly with them, request to be removed from the trip, or call in sick?

I have flown and will fly with them. Just because I disagree with the policy does not mean that I'll not follow through with my obligation as a crew member to operate the flight. I'm not one of these people, "Well, I don't think the law about pot is right, so I'm going to smoke it anyway!" The policy is in place, approved by the government and air carriers, and therefore, I have no place to abstain.

The FFDO with whom I flew on a 4-day trip was a great guy in many ways: I was out of money (surprise) and he was kind enough to get me liquored up at the Marriott in SNA during our long layover. However, in direct contrast to his generosity, he was a pig. At every station where there was a female ramper, he would get off the plane, flash his FFDO badge and try to get the girl's phone number. Hell, maybe I'm just jealous that he has bigger balls than me, but I think using the FFDO badge a chick magnet shows immaturity. In any case, I got to see his piece in-flight when the CA had to hit the lav and I 'stood guard' on the flight deck - quite nice.

 

[Big Duke Six]

MD Pilot = Good for you. Glad to hear the program is finally in order. I too have decided to apply, so I'll hopefully be down there sometime in the future. Can you give a general review of the training, day by day? I think it would be helpful to some on the board here. Thanks!!

 

[EagleRJ]

How's Water Tiger?

Has Kern retired to his ranch yet?

Can you give a general review of the training, day by day? I think it would be helpful to some on the board here.

I'm sure it would be very helpful to everyone on this board- even those who are not pilots!
The TSA recently declassified certain general aspects of the training, and several news networks have done spots about the training. You might be able to find the videos archived somewhere.
I think a day by day description is out of the question, but you'll want to arrive in some kind of physical condition. You will fire guns, you will practice hand-to-hand combat, you will spend time in classrooms, you will eat good food, you will meet new friends, you will have a lot of fun, and when you go home, you will be tired and sore! That's about the extent of it.

 

[Tripower455]

You will fire guns, you will practice hand-to-hand combat, you will spend time in classrooms, you will eat good food, you will meet new friends, you will have a lot of fun, and when you go home, you will be tired and sore! That's about the extent of it.

You will also ride a bus! Other than that, you pretty much nailed it!

 

[vetteracer]

I often wondered about dumping the cabin at a fairly safe altitude and knocking everyone out. Except the pilots of course. That is if you had the option to disarm the emergency masks. Probably not feasible and would wind up killing a few out of shape passengers. Or have a non-lethal gas, like NOX pumped into the cabin and just give everyone a helleva buzz.

Mark

 

[MDPilot]

How's Water Tiger?

Can teach any class available, as far as I'm concerned!

 

[Boeingman]

I would sincerely hope that my physical strength and personal wits would allow me to subdue an attacker thereby negating the need for a FFDO. However, his being said, many people have made good points in the thread and I'm tempted to jump the fence and support the FFDO program.

In any case, my heart's "got a black belt in judo... and the boots to match."

On UAL 93, there was a gentleman on board who was a 5th degree Black Belt. What good did that do?

Personally, I'd rather be able to defend my own cockpit rather than rely on someone else to do it for me. If it comes down to the door being breached, we have a very serious problem that obviously has not been contained from the cabin side.

After 9/11, it is amazing we are still even having this discussion. God forbid another incident takes place, but what would be even a bigger travesty is if it did, the pilot were unarmed and unable to defend themselves to prevent it in the first place.

 

[Birddog]

MD80,
How did you get to Artesia? It looks like its about 50 miles from nowhere.

 

[MDPilot]

Can you give a general review of the training, day by day? I think it would be helpful to some on the board here. Thanks!!

I think the others have covered it fairly well. Classes run from 0730 to 1830 with about 45 min for lunch. Lots of shooting time, lots of hand-to-hand "exercise" time. Classes were compacted and to-the-point for the most part. Plan on needing athletic tape, band-aids and Advil after the second day, you WILL have cuts, bruises, and very sore muscles. My right thumb is still sore from reloading magazines. Great food, all you can eat, 3 times a day. Great instructor cadre, including the (in)famous Water Tiger. Most of the firearms instructors are former Border Patrol, most of the "defensive tactics" instructors are former special ops military. Gives you a whole new perspective on security in the cockpit.

Transportation (on a chartered bus) is available departing at 1400 on Sunday from either ElPaso or Alberquque. Takes about 4 hrs to get to Artesia from there. Or you can fly Mesa into Roswell, and they will pick you up there. We even had two guys fly their own planes into Artesia itself.

 

[Tripower455]

Can teach any class available, as far as I'm concerned!

LOL...... Cool lady! I watched her kick some butt on a guy in DT. Do not be fooled by her diminuative size!

 

[MDPilot]

I wasn't fooled! I could tell that she could turn real serious, real quick.