Students and freshly minted commercial pilots read here!!

[Secret Squirrel]

The other night I was switching through the channels on tv and came across the suzi orman show. I think her info is a bit basic but there are people who obviously can not grasp the basics. ($100,000 spent for a job that pays $hit). Well the caller was a young girl who said she had $100,000 in school loans and half of that was from a private bank at 8%(key bank probably) and she was only making $20k.

Suzi: What do you do?
Caller: I am an airline pilot?
Suzi: WHAT? How can you only make $20K? You need to find a new job making more money. Pilots can make much more than that.

Suzi's only answer to this girl was she needed to get money from her family because THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN LIVE OFF $20k WHEN YOU OWE $100,000 in loans.

Don't people research this industry before getting into it? These salesman at schools must be able to sell air conditioners to eskimos because they sure are making suckers out of a whole lot of people. Sounds like the best thing to happen to this industry is key bank getting out of the aviation loan business. At least then these suckers will have a harder time finding money.

 

[Fugawe]

The other night I was switching through the channels on tv and came across the suzi orman show. I think her info is a bit basic but there are people who obviously can not grasp the basics. ($100,000 spent for a job that pays $hit). Well the caller was a young girl who said she had $100,000 in school loans and half of that was from a private bank at 8%(key bank probably) and she was only making $20k.

Suzi: What do you do?
Caller: I am an airline pilot?
Suzi: WHAT? How can you only make $20K? You need to find a new job making more money. Pilots can make much more than that.

Suzi's only answer to this girl was she needed to get money from her family because THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN LIVE OFF $20k WHEN YOU OWE $100,000 in loans.

Don't people research this industry before getting into it? These salesman at schools must be able to sell air conditioners to eskimos because they sure are making suckers out of a whole lot of people. Sounds like the best thing to happen to this industry is key bank getting out of the aviation loan business. At least then these suckers will have a harder time finding money.

This is a great post, unfortunately most will ignore the point because many are convinced that they should follow their passion and fly - no matter what the expense. Goofy logic, because most would not think like this if spending $100,000 any other way.

BTW, to a previous post.........a home purchase is not an 'investment'. An investment is something that will bring in positive cash flow. A home is a semi-smart purchase, but it's not an investment. Realtors, banks, and the average worker have been sold the home 'investment' idea for years. If you treated it like a business, you'd carry it on your books as a monthly expense with no return........then years later sell it at a profit. It's an appreciating asset, but not an investment because it cost you negative monthly cash flow...........and cash flow is king!

Fugawe

 

[NEDude]

Be smart. Find something you're good at, more or less enjoy, and can make a lot of money doing. Buy a plane and fly on the side. Newsflash .. after awhile, flying is just another job .. unfortunately one with low pay and zero stability. Chances are if you make a career out of this "hobby", you'll regret it in the long run .. unless you're the kind of guy who likes being poor, underemployed, and prepetually bored with the mundane routine of flying a bus from airport A to B to C to A, etc. Really, I never could understand how someone could do this stuff for a living unless they're very easily entertained/challenged.

Not bad advice. But personally I am tired of hearing guys who have spent their entire adult lives in aviation complaining and wanting to quit and find a "real job". I am a career changer. I worked in a couple of different industries before flying professionally (I got my private while still in high school). I made very good money in my last job. But I spent hours every week in rush hour traffic. Spent hours upon hours staring at data on a computer screen sitting in a cubical. Took a lot of work home at night and weekends. And spent a lot of time riding around in the back of airliners while on business trips. And generally hated my work.

A couple of truths for those of you who have never worked in the "real world":

- Nobody makes good money working 40 hours a week. Most decent paying careers require a minimum of 50-60 per week in the office, and many more hours brining your work home.

- Unless you work for McDonalds, stability does not exist in the USA these days.

- With every job you will worry about pay raises, career progression and retirement security.

- Every job is requiring more work for less money these days, even lawyers and doctors. The rich doctor who spends hours on the golf course is about as rare as the rich 747 captain. Most doctors these days make less than 100k and work for HMOs. Many private practices are failing. Most lawyers are staffers at mid-sized firms making high five figures - about what captains at most decent regionals end up making. (Yes I grew up around a lot of doctors and lawyers).

Basically every job has its positives and negatives. Most of the stuff we deal with in aviation is the same that you'd deal with in any career. Thankfully I have seen the other world and do know what I am missing. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

But you know what is a cool job? Working in collegiate athletics administration. That is a job I'd go back to. If only it paid decent money.

 

[BoilerUP]

Boiler up, I am totally missing your point....I just don't see how this is supposed to make sense:

I'll try to make it REAL easy this time:

Having debt is sometimes called "being leveraged". Where I come from, $100,000 will buy a small home. You spent enough money on your flight training to buy a house, and you financed that money. For all intents and purposes, you could be a homeowner now with the debt you carried - but all you have are some hours in the logbook and some certificates in your wallet.

You leveraged yourself to the point of being able to buy a home so you could get flight training.

Make sense now?


Fugawe - thanks for the economics lesson, I admit its been 4+ years so my terminology is probably a bit off...but you understood what I meant...

 

[Fugawe]

I'll try to make it REAL easy this time:

Fugawe - thanks for the economics lesson, I admit its been 4+ years so my terminology is probably a bit off...but you understood what I meant...

BoilerUP,

Yeah, I do see you get it......no lesson intended actually, I didn't refer back to see that you'd mentioned the 'investment' idea - I just remembered reading it somewhere here.

I appreciate your comments and the leverage idea. Leverage is a key to wealth -- most never understand this. Leverage moves you along, cash flow finally frees you.

What's frustrating here is that it's obvious that many want to try to force fllying into their lives and are willing to take huge financial hits to make it work. This is one of the reasons so many are willing to fly for peanuts.

With just a little patience, some financial education, and a little cash most could invest, learn leverage and weather the pain of any start-up job. Unfortunately the 'have-it-now' crowd wants it all now.......problem is they'll pay their whole lives for it with below avg earnings, below avg returns, and debt. They'll justifiy it and chalk it up as 'living their passion'.

Ah, but none of us ever listened did we? Que sera sera.

Fugawe

 

[mcjohn]

I'll try to make it REAL easy this time:

You spent enough money on your flight training to buy a house, and you financed that money. For all intents and purposes, you could be a homeowner now with the debt you carried - but all you have are some hours in the logbook and some certificates in your wallet.

You leveraged yourself to the point of being able to buy a home so you could get flight training.

Make sense now?

WTF!? No...you make no sense.....I think you're talking to the wrong guy.
Please refer to the original statements I made when I created this thread:

Aaaanyway, I came close to going to places like those above but made the decision to take that 100k and buy a house instead and here's the result:

1. Found an awesome woman and married her (they like dudes w/ houses). She splits the bills w/ me. Don't shack up or get married just to split the bills BUT do enjoy the financial freedom you gain after doing so.
2. Took my extra money and chipped away at ratings here and there and where ever I thought the deal was good and became a CFI.
3........

Where in my post did I say I spent enough money on my flight training to buy a house? All my ratings including time building cost me around 30k. I took the time to research places so I knew I was getting a good deal.

I hate to keep beating the old horse here but could you please figure out who it is you are really trying to refer to?? It would make this thread, along with your posts, a lot more meaningful.

 

[BoilerUP]

*sigh* I am responding to you.

Somebody (you I believe) had mentioned something about spending 100k for flight training, so I said the following, not towards anybody in particular:

Anybody who leverages themselves enough to buy a house simply to get flight training isn't financially responsible.

To which you responded:

O.K. So I'm not financially responsible? What makes you think anyone would buy a house SIMPLY TO GET FLIGHT TRAINING? That the dumbest thing I've heard so far today. You make no sense. Think of every reason you've heard throughout your life of why people buy houses.
Why don't you share YOUR ways of the most financially responsible way to get flight training?!

So I assumed you had spent 100k (enough to buy a house) on your flight training because you immediately got defensive when I mentioned doing that was not a financially responsible decision. Why would you get defensive otherwise?

You need to chill out and look at the big picture. I am making plenty of sense and plenty of people are understanding, and even if you didn't spend $100,000 on your training (good on you!) there is still insight to be gained.

 

[BoilerUP]

What a big stupid farking misunderstanding...

 

[hoop]

Not bad advice. But personally I am tired of hearing guys who have spent their entire adult lives in aviation complaining and wanting to quit and find a "real job". I am a career changer. I worked in a couple of different industries before flying professionally (I got my private while still in high school). I made very good money in my last job. But I spent hours every week in rush hour traffic. Spent hours upon hours staring at data on a computer screen sitting in a cubical. Took a lot of work home at night and weekends. And spent a lot of time riding around in the back of airliners while on business trips. And generally hated my work.

A couple of truths for those of you who have never worked in the "real world":

- Nobody makes good money working 40 hours a week. Most decent paying careers require a minimum of 50-60 per week in the office, and many more hours brining your work home.

- Unless you work for McDonalds, stability does not exist in the USA these days.

- With every job you will worry about pay raises, career progression and retirement security.

- Every job is requiring more work for less money these days, even lawyers and doctors. The rich doctor who spends hours on the golf course is about as rare as the rich 747 captain. Most doctors these days make less than 100k and work for HMOs. Many private practices are failing. Most lawyers are staffers at mid-sized firms making high five figures - about what captains at most decent regionals end up making. (Yes I grew up around a lot of doctors and lawyers).

Basically every job has its positives and negatives. Most of the stuff we deal with in aviation is the same that you'd deal with in any career. Thankfully I have seen the other world and do know what I am missing. The grass isn't greener on the other side.

But you know what is a cool job? Working in collegiate athletics administration. That is a job I'd go back to. If only it paid decent money.

NEDude,

Good post.

I have found this thread to be interesting. I've always wanted to fly, but never really thought it was a good return on the investment (civilian). When I started flying, it was for the shear fun of it.... doing some sight-seeing, $100 hamburger, etc.... Then, the bug bit me...... I thought about turning it into a career. Luckily, I stumbled across this board and saw the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of aviation.

I've given much thought to the career, and from where I stand, it's just not viable. I'm 34 years old, got a decent gubment job; I'm not getting rich, but not on food stamps either. I have done like many folks before me...... paid as I went. Took me 1 1/2 years to get my private, but not really in any hurry. Sure, I could have completed it way faster if I took out a loan, but couldn't justify it. I still have the ocassional pipe dream of flying corporate, but I figure at the rate I'm going, I'll be 50 years old before I have the hours and ratings to be somewhat competitive. It just astounds me that someone would pay 100K for their ratings. Even if I went that route, got my ratings, and had the hours, it would be a HUGE leap backwards in QOL for the next 10 years.

Did I miss my ship somewhere? Naa, I don't think so. I'm just following the path, and enjoying the journey. I would like to continue with my ratings, and hopefully be and instructor one of these days. That would give me a good excuse to keep me in the game, enjoy the flying, and incentive to keep learning. I think there are a ton of kids coming out of these pilot mills that will never even come close to a return on their investment. All they have to look forward to is an ugly credit history, and a lot of grief.

I guess my whole point to this long-winded post is to have a plan. Always leave yourself an out. I firmly believe in following your dreams, just do so wisely. If I were a high school senior, and could do it all over again, I would have gone in the military. I think that is without a doubt, the biggest "springboard" a young person could have these days.

 

[FN FAL]

These salesman at schools must be able to sell air conditioners to eskimos because they sure are making suckers out of a whole lot of people.

Making suckers? Hahahaha..."a sucker is born every minute".

I just need to figure a way to get to these "suckers" with the 100,000.00 dollar itch before the flight schools get their money.

All the flight school is doing is telling the "mark" exactly what they wan't to hear and then extracting a check.

Here's my offer...I'll tell you what you'd most exactly want to hear and I'll do it at a discount. My price? $50,000.00 USD. It's a bargain!