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Student Pilot Violates Solo Endorsement

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JediNein

No One Special at all
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Posts
1,256
Greetings,

What are the instructor's responsibilities and actions for when a student violates the limitations of the solo endorsement? This could be flying past the 90 days, finishing a solo cross country at night without the night endorsement, landing at an airport not listed in the endorsement, and so on.

It appears in the FAA's policy documents and so on that the CFI is the one responsible for correcting the student and conducting appropriate CYA for not teaching the student correctly. It also appears the only time a student can really get into trouble is by carrying a passenger.

Thoughts?

Fly SAFE!Jedi Nein
 
Hrmmmmm,

First time, councelling and maybe listening to an excuse (which may or may not be justified). In ANY case, it's the students responsibility to call the CFI before proceeding after any unforcast landing. If it is a blatent violation coupled with a bad attitude, proceed to the next step without delay.

After a repeat violation:

I was the CFI, the first thing I would do is get ahold of the student's logbook. Once I had it, I would write in bold letters in a prominent place in the endorsement section: "All instructor endorsements contained in this logbook and student pilot certificate XXXXX endorsed by <instructor name, CFI number and EXP date> are hereby voided this date. Student may NOT exercise any privileges granted by voided endorsements". Sign and date same with CFI number and EXP date.

Second, I would divorce ANY student/instructor relationship with this person. I would so inform ANY and ALL CFIs that might come in contact with this person of their blatent anti-authority attitude.

Obviously this person has continued this behavior after significant counselling. If they are this bad now, it will only get worse in time.

MY $0.02

Nu
 
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I had this happen once. The weather was too iffy for his 1st solo xcountry so he did the planning and the CFI who i entrusted him to agreed the winds were to high with a front on the way. They even called me to let me know it was a no-go. (I was out of town...the ONE time I did that because I really thought I could trust him and he had never done anything but be a model student up until that point.) So he decides to just solo in the pattern, which was fine. Once aloft he decided that the weather looked clear enough and he just went. No filed flight plan, no endorsement. He landed at the destination airport with the winds beyond the limits I put in his logbook. He also made it home, beligerently arguing "see everything was fine! I made it no problem!"

When I got home the next day of course I was in trouble, since that was just the way that school worked. I told the student that I could no longer instruct him because he had violated my trust. period. It is my butt and certificate that he was treading on. He was mad, a big stink ensued and I got in more trouble for now accomodating this (wealthy) client of the school. He ended up never finishing his license, so at least we all do not share the skies with the poster child of the 5 risk attitudes. The funny things was that this incident brought out all sorts of red flag behaviors I never saw in him before.

It really all depends on the severity and circumstances of the violation. Was it intentional? Did they understand the limitations? My guy claimed he'd never heard of the crosswind limitation in his logbook. Oh please!

If you decide to not teach them, stick to it no matter how much pressure the boss/client gives you. Look out for your own interests, because your student sure doesn't care.
 
Hi CFICare,

Yup. Back in the day, students got one shot with me. I made it VERY clear that endorsements are a sign of trust.

Nice thing is, and what a lot of CFI schools don't teach well, is that you can put whatever restrictions your heart desires on endorsements. These days, I don't think I'd sign a student off for more than 2 weeks at a time.

Nu
 
Probably a stupid question but...........

I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?
 
PAPA FOX! said:
I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?

Doing so would be professional and financial suicide.

Nu
 
PAPA FOX! said:
I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?


That's what the examiner does when the checkride is passed. If you as a CFI could make such an endorsement why should the student bother to get a license?

I noticed that some of my students used to resent restrictions, even ones obviously there for their safety like "day VFR, ceiling better than 2000', winds 20 degrees or less off the runway, 10 knots or less." That was the basic restriction for solo cross countries. Demonstration of consistent crosswind ability got the restriction relaxed a bit. Yet I always met with a lot of hemming and hawing from a certain percentage. When I was a student and my instructor put the crosswind restriction in my log book, I ws glad because it gave me a frame of reference in knowing when it was ok to go. Also, I wasn't going to argue that the CFI knew more about student abilities than I did.

My goal as a CFI (which I succeeded in, thankfully) was to never have a student involved in an accident or incident on my watch. Mr. Renegade Solo guy could have been a disaster, and the blame would have been on me. I laid out the rules the way I did to prevent something like that and in happened anyway. Certain personality types just had a beef with it. The ironic thing is, that the select few ( and I can think of maybe 5) who had a real problem with the way I did things, all never finished their training. If they can't follow boundaries imposed by their instructor, then how are they going to establish or adhere to personal minimums or FAA rules once they are turned loose? You know what they will say if it ever bites them in the butt? My instructor told me to do it like that!
 
Be very careful with student pilots, I used to put a condition in thier logbooks saying that thier endorsment was valid only in my presence and that I had to dispatch thier flights.
And make sure you send them on cross countries only in the morning so that they will be back by afternoon.

Aslo make sure they sign a statement saying they have recieved all the applicable training say for eg ------- per 91-XXX before they solo . i just included that statement in thier pre solo test.
 
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PAPA FOX! said:
I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?
Nope. For one thing "all applicable FARs" would not have been complied with. Certain solo flight require specific endorsements (each solo cross-country flight comes to mind), and each one needs to be done separately.

This got to be tested at least once. A CFI gave a solo cross-country endorsement covering a rout to be flown anytime in the following 35 days. The FAA's certificate action against the CFI was successful.
 

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