Student Pilot Violates Solo Endorsement

JediNein

No One Special at all
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Posts
1,256
Total Time
53 wks
Greetings,

What are the instructor's responsibilities and actions for when a student violates the limitations of the solo endorsement? This could be flying past the 90 days, finishing a solo cross country at night without the night endorsement, landing at an airport not listed in the endorsement, and so on.

It appears in the FAA's policy documents and so on that the CFI is the one responsible for correcting the student and conducting appropriate CYA for not teaching the student correctly. It also appears the only time a student can really get into trouble is by carrying a passenger.

Thoughts?

Fly SAFE!Jedi Nein
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
Hrmmmmm,

First time, councelling and maybe listening to an excuse (which may or may not be justified). In ANY case, it's the students responsibility to call the CFI before proceeding after any unforcast landing. If it is a blatent violation coupled with a bad attitude, proceed to the next step without delay.

After a repeat violation:

I was the CFI, the first thing I would do is get ahold of the student's logbook. Once I had it, I would write in bold letters in a prominent place in the endorsement section: "All instructor endorsements contained in this logbook and student pilot certificate XXXXX endorsed by <instructor name, CFI number and EXP date> are hereby voided this date. Student may NOT exercise any privileges granted by voided endorsements". Sign and date same with CFI number and EXP date.

Second, I would divorce ANY student/instructor relationship with this person. I would so inform ANY and ALL CFIs that might come in contact with this person of their blatent anti-authority attitude.

Obviously this person has continued this behavior after significant counselling. If they are this bad now, it will only get worse in time.

MY $0.02

Nu
 
Last edited:

CFIcare

DMC driver
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Posts
279
Total Time
88mph
I had this happen once. The weather was too iffy for his 1st solo xcountry so he did the planning and the CFI who i entrusted him to agreed the winds were to high with a front on the way. They even called me to let me know it was a no-go. (I was out of town...the ONE time I did that because I really thought I could trust him and he had never done anything but be a model student up until that point.) So he decides to just solo in the pattern, which was fine. Once aloft he decided that the weather looked clear enough and he just went. No filed flight plan, no endorsement. He landed at the destination airport with the winds beyond the limits I put in his logbook. He also made it home, beligerently arguing "see everything was fine! I made it no problem!"

When I got home the next day of course I was in trouble, since that was just the way that school worked. I told the student that I could no longer instruct him because he had violated my trust. period. It is my butt and certificate that he was treading on. He was mad, a big stink ensued and I got in more trouble for now accomodating this (wealthy) client of the school. He ended up never finishing his license, so at least we all do not share the skies with the poster child of the 5 risk attitudes. The funny things was that this incident brought out all sorts of red flag behaviors I never saw in him before.

It really all depends on the severity and circumstances of the violation. Was it intentional? Did they understand the limitations? My guy claimed he'd never heard of the crosswind limitation in his logbook. Oh please!

If you decide to not teach them, stick to it no matter how much pressure the boss/client gives you. Look out for your own interests, because your student sure doesn't care.
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
Hi CFICare,

Yup. Back in the day, students got one shot with me. I made it VERY clear that endorsements are a sign of trust.

Nice thing is, and what a lot of CFI schools don't teach well, is that you can put whatever restrictions your heart desires on endorsements. These days, I don't think I'd sign a student off for more than 2 weeks at a time.

Nu
 

PAPA FOX!

Super Bowl bound 2008!!
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Posts
178
Total Time
ME+SE
Probably a stupid question but...........

I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?
 

NuGuy

Ex-Commuter
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
2,375
Total Time
10000
PAPA FOX! said:
I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?

Doing so would be professional and financial suicide.

Nu
 

CFIcare

DMC driver
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Posts
279
Total Time
88mph
PAPA FOX! said:
I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?


That's what the examiner does when the checkride is passed. If you as a CFI could make such an endorsement why should the student bother to get a license?

I noticed that some of my students used to resent restrictions, even ones obviously there for their safety like "day VFR, ceiling better than 2000', winds 20 degrees or less off the runway, 10 knots or less." That was the basic restriction for solo cross countries. Demonstration of consistent crosswind ability got the restriction relaxed a bit. Yet I always met with a lot of hemming and hawing from a certain percentage. When I was a student and my instructor put the crosswind restriction in my log book, I ws glad because it gave me a frame of reference in knowing when it was ok to go. Also, I wasn't going to argue that the CFI knew more about student abilities than I did.

My goal as a CFI (which I succeeded in, thankfully) was to never have a student involved in an accident or incident on my watch. Mr. Renegade Solo guy could have been a disaster, and the blame would have been on me. I laid out the rules the way I did to prevent something like that and in happened anyway. Certain personality types just had a beef with it. The ironic thing is, that the select few ( and I can think of maybe 5) who had a real problem with the way I did things, all never finished their training. If they can't follow boundaries imposed by their instructor, then how are they going to establish or adhere to personal minimums or FAA rules once they are turned loose? You know what they will say if it ever bites them in the butt? My instructor told me to do it like that!
 

fulcrum

stranger to the ground
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Posts
122
Total Time
2000+
Be very careful with student pilots, I used to put a condition in thier logbooks saying that thier endorsment was valid only in my presence and that I had to dispatch thier flights.
And make sure you send them on cross countries only in the morning so that they will be back by afternoon.

Aslo make sure they sign a statement saying they have recieved all the applicable training say for eg ------- per 91-XXX before they solo . i just included that statement in thier pre solo test.
 
Last edited:

midlifeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Posts
2,047
Total Time
some
PAPA FOX! said:
I always wondered if a student pilot can be "emancipated" much like a minor child can be. In other words could the instructor make a blancket endorsement such as "I hearby authorize XXX to make any and all flight so long as all applicable FAR's are complied with?" Therefore the student pilot would make his own decisions regarding WX, airworthiness, routes and destinations, among other aspects of airmanship so long as he/she complies with all the regs?
Nope. For one thing "all applicable FARs" would not have been complied with. Certain solo flight require specific endorsements (each solo cross-country flight comes to mind), and each one needs to be done separately.

This got to be tested at least once. A CFI gave a solo cross-country endorsement covering a rout to be flown anytime in the following 35 days. The FAA's certificate action against the CFI was successful.
 

Sam Snead

Roger, Roger.
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Posts
151
Total Time
5000
what abou this scenario:

properly endorsed student goes on solo xc. Decides not to get gas (as endorsed instructions specify) at one of the stops. Gets lost and starves fuel, crashes into a home and kills himself and the occupants.

Where does the CFI stand?
 

nosehair

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Posts
1,238
Total Time
24/7
Sam Snead said:
Where does the CFI stand?

He's outstanding in the field...(crooked smile)

Really, the CFI has no worries...legally. Especially if he made a specific reference to refuel within the x/c endorsement; however, even if he didn't do that, the training (61.93(e)(2)Use of aircraft performance charts) implies that you covered fuel consumption.

Actually, fuel consumption should be covered and documented in the pre-solo exam to prevent (and cya) fuel exaustion.

The bottom line is that the student shoulders reponsibility as PIC. Your responsibility is to train in accordance with student pilot regulations covered in 61.87 & 61.93. When you make those endorsements, you are saying he/she can do all those things as a PIC. The only difference in a student and a Private is that the student cannot carry passengers, and has to have a sign-off on PLANNING. You are saying he had it PLANNED correctly. If he looses it after that - it is on him.
 

Fly_Chick

Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2004
Posts
311
Total Time
~1300
I had a student whose solo wind limitations I refused to increase in the C152. As I am walking out to the Arrow with my commercial student (300+ hours) my C152 student said to me "I hope you crash". Needless to say he became so one else's student after that comment.
 

Tram

RaarR! SLM will getcha!!
Joined
Dec 27, 2003
Posts
1,076
Total Time
1653Z
Wow.. was the kid like 12? How old do you have to be to say that???
 

aLear31pilot

Fly it like it was stolen
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Posts
95
Total Time
5,700
Fly chick, did you go over and drop him like a sack of potatoes??? lol
What a tool, I'd have chased him off the ramp with whatever I was flying.

Back to the orig. question at hand. I had never let a student, after he was solo endorsed, fly without checking the logs in front of me, check weather in front of me, and filing a flight plan. EVERY TIME.
I was the quintessential a hole. "To Bad I say,,, it was my ticket they were flyin on and if they didn't want to learn to fly right,,, tough titty, find a push over instructor and we'll see ya in a smokin hole someday."
Believe it or not,,, with a wonderful attitude like that,,,, I never lost a student. lol.
 

aLear31pilot

Fly it like it was stolen
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Posts
95
Total Time
5,700
OOOHHH,, one more thing,
Don't let one of the students "friends" hang around, just so they can show them what they are learning. It's a sure fire way to give their "friends" a ride on a student ticket. Students buddy snuck out on the ramp when nobody was looking and hopped in.
We saw it happen, the instructor waited till they were done with the run up and got clearance for take off and he called the tower and made him come back in.
Kid looked like he just got caught robbin a bank. lol
 

midlifeflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2003
Posts
2,047
Total Time
some
Sam Snead said:
what abou this scenario:

properly endorsed student goes on solo cross country. Decides not to get gas (as endorsed instructions specify) at one of the stops. Gets lost and starves fuel, crashes into a home and kills himself and the occupants.

Where does the CFI stand?
Any time a student gets into an accident or has an incident the FAA will naturally look at the training. And you can bet a lawyer retained by the survivors will also.

But you can't get a good answer to your question without a =lot= more detail since the inquiry and the degree of CFI responsibility will be very fact-intensive.

The good news is that there is very little NTSB and civil case law holding a CFI responsible for a soloing student's actions. I've been looking for them and asking people to give me them since about 1999 and I've only found 2 solid references covering the past 37 years.
 

100LL... Again!

youwantapieceofme??
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Posts
1,533
Total Time
4000+
aLear31pilot said:
OOOHHH,, one more thing,
Don't let one of the students "friends" hang around, just so they can show them what they are learning. It's a sure fire way to give their "friends" a ride on a student ticket. Students buddy snuck out on the ramp when nobody was looking and hopped in.
We saw it happen, the instructor waited till they were done with the run up and got clearance for take off and he called the tower and made him come back in.
Kid looked like he just got caught robbin a bank. lol

What happened then? Hope ya lowered the boom on him.
 

aLear31pilot

Fly it like it was stolen
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Posts
95
Total Time
5,700
It was actually a buddy of mine that was his instructor. He ripped azz on the kid for about 20 minutes on the ramp, pulled his log book and put big x's over any endorsements in red with a void on top of it. Maybe a little overboard, but the instructor was weeks away from starting a job for the regionals and didnt want this tool riding around on his ticket.
 

C172gal05

Fr8T Dawg in Training
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Posts
113
Total Time
A bit
Top