Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[CandyMan]

netjetwife is a real trip

I bet she is actually a netjets pilot in disguise

 

[x402]

No, she is what she claims to be.....

 

[CapnVegetto]

Spoken like a true management stooge. Keep raking in your millions and spouting this bull$hit. We don't buy it.

PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE. Good Gawd man, this long, rambling diatribe doesnt even make sense....lets examine the nonsensical portions of this post more closely....



Marquis doesnt result in any more 'wear and tear' than any other share sold. Marquis buys shares and resells them into smaller blocks than the 50 hrs minimum.
Dude, you are selling more time on owners' jets. They are flying more as a result. You are selling more time on the same aircraft. Dumba$$. Go back and get another MBA from Sally Struthers. Or at least get some comon sense.


It takes two to tango. The union could have had an agreement years ago but didnt want an agreement during 2002-2003 when the economy was in the tank....why else would you spend years dickering over contractual provisions and not even talk wages? They didnt want an agreement because the economy was horrible and they wouldnt be able to make their 'double my salary' demands. When the economy picks up in 2004 then they are in a mad rush to get a deal done and they start their mad-cap claims of 1300 days of waiting on management....lets face it, union leadership and the company reached a TA last fall and the pilots voted it down, changed their MEC, Local, and Negotiating team, forcing everyone to start over.....so you really havent been waiting 1300 days....more like 120.
Thank GOD that agreement was voted down. Worst pay and work rules in the industry!! Of course the union leadership was replaced! Offering a TA like that proved that they were COMPLETELY inept at their job! "Dickering over contractual provisions"? More like "fixing work rules so managment isn't able to F--K them anymore." You don't like that. What pilots refer to as f-cking, management refers to as 'efficiency'. Of course, that is your JOB. To pay pilots as little and f-ck them as much as you can get away with. Hell, if management could figure out how to get us to work for free, their bonuses would be bigger, right?


CONTRADICTORY....why would the company stall giving the pilots a contract and buy anti-union consultants to try and break the union if the MEC was a bunch of puppets that gave the company everything they wanted???
Real simple, because the pilot group got rid of those management stooges and voted in some people that actually give a crap.



Not the 'reduced price lunch' speech again!?!? How about the union leaders being quoted in the Columbus Dispatch that the pilots average between $50,000 - $72,000? Last time I looked that doesnt qualify for WICK. And dont start about the first year FO wages, because everyone knows that the entire aviation industry is set up with low entry level wages and your union refused a company offer of an immediate 20% increase for that group, no strings attached.
Again, spoken like a true management stooge. You're home every night, in your Lexus, with your family, sleeping in your own bed. You have no idea what per diem is. Per diem is not just for meals. Never was. It's for your time, for all the stuff you have to buy on the road besides food. Razors, toiletries, extra underwear, t-shirts, doing laundry on the road, luggage, to name a few.

Arent we talking about NetJets? I've never seen any statements in the press that NetJets had 34 Billion laying around. You must be talking about Berkshire.....but does that mean you're suggesting that Geico and Pampered Chef employees pay for your salary demands?
No, but Berkshire Hathaway does. No Geico and Pampered Chef employees shouldn't pay for salary demands. But the fatcat billionaires at BH raking in millions off pilots' sweat should be, intead of sticking it in their pocket and bragging about it to the media.

Sounds good, but are you going to give the same level of productivity? Union shops have high levels of bureaucracy and inefficiency associated with them. You dont see the company taking an entire negotiating team off flight duty at NJI or EJM. are you going to give up the grievance process that you've overwhelmed with your thousands of grievances this year? Are you going to give up the double dip of crew meals and per diem?
A union is there only because you have chosen to try to screw the pilot group. A union is formed when needed. And no, the grievence process won't be dropped. Maybe if you stop trying to f-ck the pilot group and break the contract, the grievances wouldn't be filed. Think about that one. And don't give me any bull$hit about productivity. Southwest Airlines is unionized. They work more efficiently than anyone in this industry, and are making money hand over fist, even in these hard times. Why? Despite the big mean bad union, they have a management team that actually gives a da-n about their employees, not lining their own pockets. One of Herb's most famous quotes: "Take care of your employees, and the rest will work itself out." Truer words have NEVER been spoken. Every single employee at SWA WORKS THEIR A$$ off, runs as efficiently as they can, and does every little iota of anything they can to save a dime because they know it's all about the bottom line. They're going to see a return on their hard work. What is a NJA employee's motivation to do that? To make Buffet richer? Why the hell would someone want to do that? They know if they work there a$$ off, the only thing that will happen is WB will stuff more millions in his pocket, and try to screw them out of a little bit more. I don't see why other management teams, (who ALL want to be like SWA) can't figure this out. YOU CAN'T RUN A SERVICE BUSINESS WHILE F-CKING EMPLOYEES!!! Eventually, it WILL bite you in the a$$. Look at United. Look at every single legacy carrier!! Use your f-ing BRAIN!!!!



NetJets has grown on the efforts of all employees (including the pilots), Mr. Santulli's vision and guidance (without him the fractional segment and its thousands of pilot jobs wouldnt exist), and Berkshire's capital. All of those groups deserve a return on their investment. One group cant take 300% of the annual profit and hamstring the groups that also built the company.

Da-n right, I agree with you there. They all deserve a return on their investment. SO DO THE PILOTS. The fatcats and management types like you don't get all of it. Get that through your head.


I don't even work at Netjets, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is going on. Management all seems to be the same. "F-ck the employees as much as we can, so we can stick more in our pocket." Bull$hit. Kudos to the NJA union for fighting back. If managment doesn't give them what they deserve, then let the place burn.

 

[FAcFriend]

capn

He is right about cardholders not putting more wear and tear on airplanes. They buys a big share and divides it into smaller shares. But the smaller shares equal the big share. They pay the same price for the big share as any other owner.

There is no more wear and tear because the cardholder co. pays the same price per share as other owners.

 

[CapnVegetto]

capn

He is right about cardholders not putting more wear and tear on airplanes. They buys a big share and divides it into smaller shares. But the smaller shares equal the big share. They pay the same price for the big share as any other owner.

There is no more wear and tear because the cardholder co. pays the same price per share as other owners.

Sorry bud, gotta call you out on this one. You ever flown charter? Charter customers DON'T CARE. They trash airplanes, trash interiors, spill beer and coffee, and don't give a crap b/c it's not theirs. To me, that constitutes wear and tear.

Plus, the initial accusation was 'selling more Marquis cards than the fleet can handle.' That's what I'm basing it off of. I know that NJA sells off a LOT of trips. Probably because they have more flying than their fleet can handle, thereby those airplanes have an increase in wear and tear.

 

[x402]

capn

He is right about cardholders not putting more wear and tear on airplanes. They buys a big share and divides it into smaller shares. But the smaller shares equal the big share. They pay the same price for the big share as any other owner.

There is no more wear and tear because the cardholder co. pays the same price per share as other owners.

This is one of the more ignorant statements I've seen on this board. There are NO shares sold and then sub-divided. If you know what's going on then you know it's not a truthful staement. There is NO WAY of knowing what Marquis pays for anything. Its a closely held secret. Smoke and mirrors my friends and they do beat the piss out of the aircraft.

 

[Starman]

capn

He is right about cardholders not putting more wear and tear on airplanes. They buys a big share and divides it into smaller shares. But the smaller shares equal the big share. They pay the same price for the big share as any other owner.

There is no more wear and tear because the cardholder co. pays the same price per share as other owners.

Marquis is selling cards based on aircraft they'll "lease" that won't be delivered until 2008 or later. This is a classic shell game invented by a guy named ponzi and continued by the owners and management of Netjets/Marquis.

 

[Viffer]

Spoken like a true management stooge. Keep raking in your millions and spouting this bull$hit. We don't buy it.



Da-n right, I agree with you there. They all deserve a return on their investment. SO DO THE PILOTS. The fatcats and management types like you don't get all of it. Get that through your head.


I don't even work at Netjets, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is going on. Management all seems to be the same. "F-ck the employees as much as we can, so we can stick more in our pocket." Bull$hit. Kudos to the NJA union for fighting back. If managment doesn't give them what they deserve, then let the place burn.

There is an attitude here that is somewhat misplaced. This is a free market economy. A person who decides to start up a business is of course going to attempt to get the most from the least. That is the very nature of business. The market will decide through attrition what things are worth and what overhead is neccessary to operate. Employees are a part of this equation. If an employee accepts a position for X dollars then they are stating that that is their worth. Period. NJ pilots as a group have stated from the begining that their worth was 1/3 of what the open pilot market was indication. Managers are not out with a bull whip forcing pilots to accept flying jobs, they are putting opffers out and seeing if they get any takers. If they do then it is an indication that their offerings are on target and acceptable. If they get no response well then guess what, the offers increase.

Now, as this dispute heightens all the emotioinal cries of 'we deserve' and 'we are entitled' and 'management makes a killing off of us and we want our share' are no more than venting frustration. Management gave every one of you guys the option to decline their offer and you all took it. Are they really taking advantage of a situation for their own profit, certainly. And they have done so for so long because the employee base said loud and clear that they can by accepting that insulting salary in the first place.

Business is out to make a profit, plain and simple. They are going to do what they can to make as much as possible, and it is not a personal issue. Having said all this I would add that I still think most of you guys are in the right and hope that you are successful. Just don't ever forget how the company as a whole got into this situation in the first place. Pilots selling themselves short, and undercutting the industry salary standards. You all need to acknowledge and understand this issue, and so far few NJ pilots who post in this thread seem to. Get what you can without destroying your company, and learn the lesson well for the next time you are negotiating yourself a job. Get paid what you are worth from day one, or there will be no reason for the managers to ever meet standards. Why should they?

Flame away, but think about this concept. It's not that hard to understand.

 

[gern_blanston]

Well said, Viffer. Absolutely tru.

 

[FLYLOW22]

And they have done so for so long because the employee base said loud and clear that they can by accepting that insulting salary in the first place.


Flame away, but think about this concept. It's not that hard to understand.

You mean when there was about 50 pilots at Executive Jet? Oh. Ok. Yah.

 

[CapnVegetto]

There is an attitude here that is somewhat misplaced. This is a free market economy. A person who decides to start up a business is of course going to attempt to get the most from the least. That is the very nature of business. The market will decide through attrition what things are worth and what overhead is neccessary to operate. Employees are a part of this equation. If an employee accepts a position for X dollars then they are stating that that is their worth. Period. NJ pilots as a group have stated from the begining that their worth was 1/3 of what the open pilot market was indication. Managers are not out with a bull whip forcing pilots to accept flying jobs, they are putting opffers out and seeing if they get any takers. If they do then it is an indication that their offerings are on target and acceptable. If they get no response well then guess what, the offers increase.

Now, as this dispute heightens all the emotioinal cries of 'we deserve' and 'we are entitled' and 'management makes a killing off of us and we want our share' are no more than venting frustration. Management gave every one of you guys the option to decline their offer and you all took it. Are they really taking advantage of a situation for their own profit, certainly. And they have done so for so long because the employee base said loud and clear that they can by accepting that insulting salary in the first place.

Business is out to make a profit, plain and simple. They are going to do what they can to make as much as possible, and it is not a personal issue. Having said all this I would add that I still think most of you guys are in the right and hope that you are successful. Just don't ever forget how the company as a whole got into this situation in the first place. Pilots selling themselves short, and undercutting the industry salary standards. You all need to acknowledge and understand this issue, and so far few NJ pilots who post in this thread seem to. Get what you can without destroying your company, and learn the lesson well for the next time you are negotiating yourself a job. Get paid what you are worth from day one, or there will be no reason for the managers to ever meet standards. Why should they?

Flame away, but think about this concept. It's not that hard to understand.

OK, so multimillionaire management types can invest money, take the risk in the long run, and when the company starts doing well, they can profit by taking millions in bonus money, and that's OK. But when a pilot takes a job for low pay, investing their time and skills in the future, and in the hope that after they sacrifice their time and efforts, (as the fatcats sacrificed their money) after the company grows and makes money, while the fatcats are raking in their millions, the pilots aren't entitled to anything? That is the biggest pile of $hit I've ever heard......FLAME ON!!

If times get bad, the first thing management does at ANY airline is run right to the pilots and whine and bitch and pi$$ and moan about how labor is too costly and ask for cuts, while all the time STILL GIVING THEMSELVES MILLIONS IN BONUSES, STOCK OPTIONS, AND EXECUTIVE PERKS. When times are good, can the pilots go to management and say, "Hey, we're making a killing, it's time for a pay raise."?? Hell no......they have to wait for contract time.

This is the ENTIRE REASON the word 'hypocrite' was invented. I get so pi$$ed about this subject I can hardly contain myself. Yes, I don't work for NJA, nor do I ever want to, but do I support them? Hell yes. Because I can't stand to watch the hypocritical bull$hit that management is spewing out.

 

[Viffer]

Since the preceding poster can't understand here it is again for those in this situation. As no one has cut your pay I assume that you make exactly what you agreed to do your job for? If you are willing to work for 25K and 'hope' that you will get more as things grow you live in fantasy land. Expanding business is not going to change the fact one bit that you employees have so little self worth, and management is going to continue on that road as long as that is the case. You would be a fool to do this kind of work for that little money, and yet you do so expecting big rewards in the future. Grow up. If you clearly show you are willing to do your job for nothing that is exactly what you can expect to receive. It has nothing to do with a hatred of management. If you hate this so much then next time demand a realistic salary or walk away and find something better. This is reality of the big bad world.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

OK, so multimillionaire management types can invest money, take the risk in the long run, and when the company starts doing well, they can profit by taking millions in bonus money, and that's OK. But when a pilot takes a job for low pay, investing their time and skills in the future, and in the hope that after they sacrifice their time and efforts, (as the fatcats sacrificed their money) after the company grows and makes money, while the fatcats are raking in their millions, the pilots aren't entitled to anything? That is the biggest pile of $hit I've ever heard......FLAME ON!!

If times get bad, the first thing management does at ANY airline is run right to the pilots and whine and bitch and pi$$ and moan about how labor is too costly and ask for cuts, while all the time STILL GIVING THEMSELVES MILLIONS IN BONUSES, STOCK OPTIONS, AND EXECUTIVE PERKS. When times are good, can the pilots go to management and say, "Hey, we're making a killing, it's time for a pay raise."?? Hell no......they have to wait for contract time.

This is the ENTIRE REASON the word 'hypocrite' was invented. I get so pi$$ed about this subject I can hardly contain myself. Yes, I don't work for NJA, nor do I ever want to, but do I support them? Hell yes. Because I can't stand to watch the hypocritical bull$hit that management is spewing out.

Please do contain yourself...

I mean...even I am embarassed for you after reading a few posts...

.

 

[ozpilot]

Viffer,

If your talking about salaried employees I agree. During the interview you negiotate your best salary and if you don't like it you walk away. If you do, then you accept it.

When I hired on at Netjets 4 years ago I could not negiotate my salary since it was defined by the contract between the company and the union. I was told at the time by both the company and the union (even using a powerpoint presentation) that we could expect a very generous - yes 100% was mentioned - salary increase. I was also told that I could expect that the contract would be done in a year.

Can you begin to understand my frustration when its four years later and we are no closer to reaching an agreement?

Was I lied to? Absolutely!
Was I foolish to have trusted what I was told? Sure.

I can tell you if I'd know it would be 4 years I doubt I would have made the decision to come here.

So I hear you say - well quit and get another job.

Not as easy as some think. The pilot profession is different than most in one important aspect - its not possible to move sideways when you go from one carrier to another due to the seniority system. I am a 4 year Captain at Netjets - if I go to another carrier, I start all over again. My salary (humble as it is) would go down by about 80%.

Thats what I did when I came to Netjets - started over - and why? Because I believed what the Union and the Company told me at the interview.

Oh, and if you think I'm mad at the company its nothing compared to how I feel about the Union leadership that was in place when I was hired.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I only agreed to work for such wages until 11/1/2001.

Both sides knew it was time for a new deal.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Spoken like a true management stooge. Keep raking in your millions and spouting this bull$hit. We don't buy it.

Arent we talking about NetJets? I've never seen any statements in the press that NetJets had 34 Billion laying around. You must be talking about Berkshire.....but does that mean you're suggesting that Geico and Pampered Chef employees pay for your salary demands?

No, but Berkshire Hathaway does. No Geico and Pampered Chef employees shouldn't pay for salary demands. But the fatcat billionaires at BH raking in millions off pilots' sweat should be, intead of sticking it in their pocket and bragging about it to the media.

Berkshire isnt raking in millions off of pilots' sweat....NetJets is a break-even or marginally profitable business. BRK gets the bulk of its profits from the insurance business. Read the annual reports and you'll see that its true...

A union is formed when needed.

NetJets' union was formed long before Mr. Santulli bought the company and invented the fractional market. Was it in response to poor management? Probably. Is a union needed to deal with Mr. Santulli now? I doubt it. NJI, NJE, and EJM pilots dont think so....a large majority of my fellow Bridgeway employees dont think so either.

And don't give me any bull$hit about productivity. Southwest Airlines is unionized. They work more efficiently than anyone in this industry, and are making money hand over fist, even in these hard times. Why? Despite the big mean bad union, they have a management team that actually gives a da-n about their employees, not lining their own pockets. One of Herb's most famous quotes: "Take care of your employees, and the rest will work itself out." Truer words have NEVER been spoken. Every single employee at SWA WORKS THEIR A$$ off, runs as efficiently as they can, and does every little iota of anything they can to save a dime because they know it's all about the bottom line. They're going to see a return on their hard work. What is a NJA employee's motivation to do that? To make Buffet richer? Why the hell would someone want to do that? They know if they work there a$$ off, the only thing that will happen is WB will stuff more millions in his pocket, and try to screw them out of a little bit more. I don't see why other management teams, (who ALL want to be like SWA) can't figure this out. YOU CAN'T RUN A SERVICE BUSINESS WHILE F-CKING EMPLOYEES!!! Eventually, it WILL bite you in the a$$. Look at United. Look at every single legacy carrier!! Use your f-ing BRAIN!!!!

I agree with your comments on Southwest's employee friendly outlook and its positive effect on company performance. I think their model should be copied by every company in the US, whether they are aviation related or not. Mr. Santulli has long advocated in person that you should take care of employees. I personally havent worked for another company that cared more for its people.

SWA's recent profitability though has been primarily due to its fuel hedges and their foresight to lock in fuel at $28-$35 a barrel. This isnt meant to take anything away from the positive impact of having good labor-management relations, just to point out that even good companies with great labor relations can lose money in rough economic environments.

As for your comments on Buffett, I think it is clear that you are judging the man simply by the size of his wallet and not by his actions. Buffett is a widely acknowledged DEMOCRAT, a staunch critic of excessive management pay (his salary is $100,000) and stock options, and he has repeatedly called for harsh penalties for the managers that have lined their pockets with company profits. If you watched his interview on CNBC about 2 weeks ago you would have seen him state very simply that the rich are currently winning in the United States and the Congress and President should raise taxes and help to redistribute the wealth. He also got in trouble in California for suggesting that they raise property taxes when he pointed out that he pays more property taxes for his house in Omaha than he does on an estate in California....

 

[FamilyGuy]

Originally Posted by FAcFriend
capn

He is right about cardholders not putting more wear and tear on airplanes. They buys a big share and divides it into smaller shares. But the smaller shares equal the big share. They pay the same price for the big share as any other owner.

There is no more wear and tear because the cardholder co. pays the same price per share as other owners.

Sorry bud, gotta call you out on this one. You ever flown charter? Charter customers DON'T CARE. They trash airplanes, trash interiors, spill beer and coffee, and don't give a crap b/c it's not theirs. To me, that constitutes wear and tear.

It doesnt matter whether they own the plane or rent the plane....a certain percentage of the people will trash the plane. You should see what some of the 'owners' do to their plane. Believe me, the wear and tear is the same.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Since the preceding poster can't understand here it is again for those in this situation. As no one has cut your pay I assume that you make exactly what you agreed to do your job for? If you are willing to work for 25K and 'hope' that you will get more as things grow you live in fantasy land. Expanding business is not going to change the fact one bit that you employees have so little self worth, and management is going to continue on that road as long as that is the case. You would be a fool to do this kind of work for that little money, and yet you do so expecting big rewards in the future. Grow up. If you clearly show you are willing to do your job for nothing that is exactly what you can expect to receive. It has nothing to do with a hatred of management. If you hate this so much then next time demand a realistic salary or walk away and find something better. This is reality of the big bad world.

OK, so what are you then? A PFTer? Does Daddy Warbucks buy you a new Jag? Have you ever even worked a day in your life? Do you have any clue at all what you're talking about in your useless dribble? In all your useless babble, you have yet to tell me why the pilots negotiating for a new contract is wrong, and you have yet to tell me why one of the PRIMARY REASONS the company has grown shouldn't get their due just like everyone else. Quit and get another job? Well, you can watch those guys walk off when they strike and shut the place down. They'll either get their due or there will be no more NJA. The complete and utter lack of doing the right thing that management has displayed is pathetic, and your defending them is even worse. Why didn't you spout back a retort on the SWA example? Their pilots are the highest paid in the industry. They have the best work rules in the industry. Their management treats them right. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. And they're smart enough to know that happy employees are going to be better ones. My company treats me right. As a result, I work harder for them. I plan buying fuel around where it will be cheaper. I shut down an engine on the way in to save a little gas and try to avoid riding brakes to make the pads last longer. I increase landing rollouts whenever possible to avoid heating up the brakes. I go out of my way to check to see every single place that sells contract fuel. I go higher to burn less gas. I hand out business cards to potential customers whenever possible. I carry extra oil on the road in case I need it because I know they can get it cheaper than I can on the road. I'll switch my days off around to help them out when they're screwed. I use a power cart for every start when it's free because it saves wear and tear on the battery.

The people making these decisions are Harvard MBA's that have a paper that says they're smart. They look at papers, numbers, graphs, pie charts, and a bunch of crap that doesn't matter in real life. They think 'if we pay our pilots this much, then according to this chart/table/graph/whatever, we save $5 million a year, which we can stick in our pocket!!'. What they fail to realize is that the pi$$ed off pilots are probably costing the company twice that simply by not caring about operational procedues. I'll give you an example: at my old airline, (Mesa), in the CRJ's you could do a 'flex' (reduced power) takeoff. It was the captain's option. By reducing the T/O power, you run the engines slower, at a lower temperature, therefore, there is MUCH less wear and tear on them. Because of the way JO treats his employees there, (really $hitty), at least 75% of the captains I flew with REFUSED to do flex takoffs. I promise you, when a hot section on that engine comes up, and more parts have to be replaced due to higher temps/wear and tear, that $5 million bucks you saved by cutting everyone's pay vanishes REAL fast. JO is too stupid to realize that if he treated his people right, and paid them a little more, the money they save would probably double their profits. My boss is a pilot. He's a line captain with the rest of us, as well as the owner of the company, and he's smart enough to know how much money a happy pilot can save the company simply by watching what he does a little bit. Hell, you've probably never touched an airplane in your life. If you have, it'd shock the hell out of me.

Go back to your cubicle and live in your fantasy world. Look at every single Legacy carrier out there. Cut pay, cut pay, cut more pay, still can't make money. Maybe their management should try getting a Yale MBA. Those Harvard ones don't seem to be working out too well.

 

[Viffer]

Viffer,

If your talking about salaried employees I agree. During the interview you negiotate your best salary and if you don't like it you walk away. If you do, then you accept it.

When I hired on at Netjets 4 years ago I could not negiotate my salary since it was defined by the contract between the company and the union. I was told at the time by both the company and the union (even using a powerpoint presentation) that we could expect a very generous - yes 100% was mentioned - salary increase. I was also told that I could expect that the contract would be done in a year.

Can you begin to understand my frustration when its four years later and we are no closer to reaching an agreement?

Was I lied to? Absolutely!
Was I foolish to have trusted what I was told? Sure.

I can tell you if I'd know it would be 4 years I doubt I would have made the decision to come here.

So I hear you say - well quit and get another job.

Not as easy as some think. The pilot profession is different than most in one important aspect - its not possible to move sideways when you go from one carrier to another due to the seniority system. I am a 4 year Captain at Netjets - if I go to another carrier, I start all over again. My salary (humble as it is) would go down by about 80%.

Thats what I did when I came to Netjets - started over - and why? Because I believed what the Union and the Company told me at the interview.

Oh, and if you think I'm mad at the company its nothing compared to how I feel about the Union leadership that was in place when I was hired.

First, I appreciate that you have a cool head and are willing to discuss things calmly, unlike others here. My point is not that you were lied to, and I have no doubt you speak the truth on that. My point is more generalized, in that so many pilots willingly accepted those salaries. I know it is an over simplification but if no one would work for so little the salary would be realistic and fair. From day one. There are just too many pilots who accept jobs for other purposes than to actually earn a respectable living, reasons such as building time, types, getting out of another job or situation, or whatever else they may 'need' for the future. These reasons have killed your industry to the point you are at now. It really does come down to that. If you accept a job on promises there are no guarantee's it will ever materialize. I do have sympathy for you and those in your situation, and hope you come out alright.

I also have been at the bottom of the barrel as well. I have sat in interviews and negotiated my way up and I know what my skills and experience are worth. It is not an easy thing to do but everyone has the choice to say 'thanks but I will look for something better'. We all have survived good and bad jobs, and non flying jobs as well to get where we are. It is no different for frax pilots. All pilots have to demand their worth and expect to get it or walk. If there are promises they have to be in writing and something the boss can actually do. A promise based on a yet to be negotiated contract can never be guaranteed at an interview, and the NJ guys need to realize that at the interview. You have to earn your worth from day one or it will not come later. Sorry to be so harsh, but I have to say that your current situation should not be a suprise.

One other point is that as soon as labor and management go down the path of becoming enemies, the entire company is destined to collapse. Look at every major airline to see it happening. It appears that with NJ things have gone past the point where all sides will ever be happy again. I hope I'm wrong, but the future of NJ looks bleak.

 

[FamilyGuy]

If times get bad, the first thing management does at ANY airline is run right to the pilots and whine and bitch and pi$$ and moan about how labor is too costly and ask for cuts, while all the time STILL GIVING THEMSELVES MILLIONS IN BONUSES, STOCK OPTIONS, AND EXECUTIVE PERKS. When times are good, can the pilots go to management and say, "Hey, we're making a killing, it's time for a pay raise."?? Hell no......they have to wait for contract time.

This is the ENTIRE REASON the word 'hypocrite' was invented. I get so pi$$ed about this subject I can hardly contain myself. Yes, I don't work for NJA, nor do I ever want to, but do I support them? Hell yes. Because I can't stand to watch the hypocritical bull$hit that management is spewing out.

I agree with you on this point as well Capn. I am disgusted that some management types get greedy and ask for concessions while they give themselves bonuses or pass special provisions that protect their pensions during a bankruptcy. This behavior is totally unacceptable and I was very pleased when the American and Delta executives were kicked out for these actions. I've always believed that pain and gain should be shared.

I also think your post points out the problem with contracts - they lock groups into terms with no flexibility either way when the economic picture changes. If the company is doing poorly it is still forced to pay wages that it cant afford or are dramatically above market conditions (example - legacy carriers over the last 4 years) and when the company is doing well the workers are locked into terms below the levels they could get if they were free to move around. Yes, managers are loath to give anything beyond contractual provisions during the good times just as unions dont want to give anything back during the bad times (again look at legacy unions over the last four years....how long did it take Delta pilots to face up to the situation their company is in? Northwest's pilots union recently stated that the other unions should face economic reality only to be told to mind their business by other union leaders). In the end it is a terribly rigid model that doesnt adapt to rapidly changing market conditions.

That's why I prefer our current performance based system....it recognizes and rewards the people that contribute more and work harder and is adjustable up or down each year depending on that years economic conditions.

Does it provide that 'guaranteed increase' each year as a contract? No, but I've found that the vast majority of people who just want to go to work and do their jobs each day have nothing to fear. The only ones that should be concerned by that type of system are the people that want to slide by and do nothing while everyone else picks up their slack.

One last observation - if you dont work for NJA then how can you state that NJ management is spewing out hypocritical bull$hit? Are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

 

[Viffer]

OK, so what are you then? A PFTer? Does Daddy Warbucks buy you a new Jag? Have you ever even worked a day in your life? Do you have any clue at all what you're talking about in your useless dribble?.

Thanks, Capn. That was one of the best things I've read all day!

 

[FamilyGuy]

One other point is that as soon as labor and management go down the path of becoming enemies, the entire company is destined to collapse. Look at every major airline to see it happening. It appears that with NJ things have gone past the point where all sides will ever be happy again. I hope I'm wrong, but the future of NJ looks bleak.

Great point Viffer. This is exactly what most of the people at Bridgeway are concerned about - that things have deteriorated so far that that we will never be able to go back to the great atmosphere that we used to have.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Berkshire isnt raking in millions off of pilots' sweat....NetJets is a break-even or marginally profitable business. BRK gets the bulk of its profits from the insurance business. Read the annual reports and you'll see that its true...NetJets' union was formed long before Mr. Santulli bought the company and invented the fractional market. Was it in response to poor management? Probably. Is a union needed to deal with Mr. Santulli now? I doubt it. NJI, NJE, and EJM pilots dont think so....a large majority of my fellow Bridgeway employees dont think so either.

The union was formed because pay/benefits/QOL has steadily declined over the years as the company has grown and revenue has gotten to be more. Please don't get me wrong.....for the most part, I'm NOT pro union. My brief union experience was NOT a good one. I just simply don't believe them. Period. I know what they charge, and I know how much those jets cost per hour to operate, (and it's even less than I know b/c of pilot salaries there). Over the last few years, NJA pilots have watched their fly from home vanish, their pay vanish, their work rules get worse, their days get longer. I'm sure they got to the point to where enough was enough.




I agree with your comments on Southwest's employee friendly outlook and its positive effect on company performance. I think their model should be copied by every company in the US, whether they are aviation related or not. Mr. Santulli has long advocated in person that you should take care of employees. I personally havent worked for another company that cared more for its people.

SWA's recent profitability though has been primarily due to its fuel hedges and their foresight to lock in fuel at $28-$35 a barrel. This isnt meant to take anything away from the positive impact of having good labor-management relations, just to point out that even good companies with great labor relations can lose money in rough economic environments.

As for your comments on Buffett, I think it is clear that you are judging the man simply by the size of his wallet and not by his actions. Buffett is a widely acknowledged DEMOCRAT, a staunch critic of excessive management pay (his salary is $100,000) and stock options, and he has repeatedly called for harsh penalties for the managers that have lined their pockets with company profits. If you watched his interview on CNBC about 2 weeks ago you would have seen him state very simply that the rich are currently winning in the United States and the Congress and President should raise taxes and help to redistribute the wealth. He also got in trouble in California for suggesting that they raise property taxes when he pointed out that he pays more property taxes for his house in Omaha than he does on an estate in California....

OK, then riddle me this.....if NJA had the same fuel hedges, would they be passing that extra profit on to the employees, or keeping it themselves? You say that NJA 'cares' for its employees? They why is fly from home gone? Why has pay decreased? Why have work rules gotten worse? Why does Mr. Sanatulli talk about taking care of his people, yet doesn't DO it? Give me five minutes, and I'll advocate in person anything you want! But until I DO something about it, it doesn't matter does it?

Oh yeah, and state to me right now with 'good company' with 'good labor relations' in aviation is LOSING money right now.

So Mr. Buffet is a 'staunch critic of excessive management pay'? I'm sure he criticizes most loudly while hopping on his private jet heading to one of his two homes. Buddy, I may not be a quantum physicist, but I can sure as hell tell you that he isn't paying the bills from all that stuff on a $100,000 a year salary. To borrow an old cliche', actions speak louder than words.

Since you have such good sources, maybe you can do this: post how much each management member of NJA makes, and I'm not talking just salary. I mean stock options, bonuses, executive perks, usage of company equipment, expense accounts. Basically, all that they get that pilots don't.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I agree with you on this point as well Capn. I am disgusted that some management types get greedy and ask for concessions while they give themselves bonuses or pass special provisions that protect their pensions during a bankruptcy. This behavior is totally unacceptable and I was very pleased when the American and Delta executives were kicked out for these actions. I've always believed that pain and gain should be shared.

Amen Amigo.

I also think your post points out the problem with contracts - they lock groups into terms with no flexibility either way when the economic picture changes. If the company is doing poorly it is still forced to pay wages that it cant afford or are dramatically above market conditions (example - legacy carriers over the last 4 years) and when the company is doing well the workers are locked into terms below the levels they could get if they were free to move around. Yes, managers are loath to give anything beyond contractual provisions during the good times just as unions dont want to give anything back during the bad times (again look at legacy unions over the last four years....how long did it take Delta pilots to face up to the situation their company is in? Northwest's pilots union recently stated that the other unions should face economic reality only to be told to mind their business by other union leaders). In the end it is a terribly rigid model that doesnt adapt to rapidly changing market conditions.

You're right here. Exactly why I'm not pro union. I will agree, sometimes cuts are needed. But in this example, we're back to the same ol' thing. Management still paying themselves and their cronies millions, and bugging labor for even MORE cuts instead of developing a better business plan and finding other ways to save.

That's why I prefer our current performance based system....it recognizes and rewards the people that contribute more and work harder and is adjustable up or down each year depending on that years economic conditions.

Makes sense to me. However the big problem is the union doesn't believe management. They believe that management is corrupt. How can the other companies be making money while NJA isn't? See my previous posts about operating costs.

Does it provide that 'guaranteed increase' each year as a contract? No, but I've found that the vast majority of people who just want to go to work and do their jobs each day have nothing to fear. The only ones that should be concerned by that type of system are the people that want to slide by and do nothing while everyone else picks up their slack.

That's how a lot of people are. If that's what your labor wants, then you're gonna have to deal with it. People have mortgages, college funds, car payments......they have to know what's coming. There are bad apples, yes, as always. But your company is going to run better and more profitably with happy labor. Period. I go back to what I said earlier.....you can't run a service business with pi$$ed off labor. Look at every single airline out there. The ones with happy labor and good business plans are the ones making money.

One last observation - if you dont work for NJA then how can you state that NJ management is spewing out hypocritical bull$hit? Are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

Because I can READ. And I'm not talking about just message boards. I'm talking news reports, etc. Not to mention all the people that work there that I know.

5 characters.

 

[FamilyGuy]

The union was formed because pay/benefits/QOL has steadily declined over the years as the company has grown and revenue has gotten to be more. Please don't get me wrong.....for the most part, I'm NOT pro union. My brief union experience was NOT a good one. I just simply don't believe them. Period. I know what they charge, and I know how much those jets cost per hour to operate, (and it's even less than I know b/c of pilot salaries there). Over the last few years, NJA pilots have watched their fly from home vanish, their pay vanish, their work rules get worse, their days get longer. I'm sure they got to the point to where enough was enough.

WRONG. The union has been in place at Executive Jet/NetJets for over 30 years....long before Mr. Santulli came into the picture. Ask some of your NJ pilot friends for confirmation if you like. And again, if you arent part of NetJets then how do you know what's happened internally at NetJets?

OK, then riddle me this.....if NJA had the same fuel hedges, would they be passing that extra profit on to the employees, or keeping it themselves?

NetJets doesnt make money on fuel. We charge our owners our actual cost of fuel so any savings on fuel go to the owners - not management, not employees.

You say that NJA 'cares' for its employees? They why is fly from home gone? Why has pay decreased? Why have work rules gotten worse? Why does Mr. Sanatulli talk about taking care of his people, yet doesn't DO it? Give me five minutes, and I'll advocate in person anything you want! But until I DO something about it, it doesn't matter does it?

You're not part of NetJets but you know all the details of our problems.... Again, are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

Oh yeah, and state to me right now with 'good company' with 'good labor relations' in aviation is LOSING money right now.

Okay....Continental airlines. How about this one - what good (or bad) aviation company with bad labor relations is making money right now? How about Fedex and UPS?

So Mr. Buffet is a 'staunch critic of excessive management pay'? I'm sure he criticizes most loudly while hopping on his private jet heading to one of his two homes. Buddy, I may not be a quantum physicist, but I can sure as hell tell you that he isn't paying the bills from all that stuff on a $100,000 a year salary. To borrow an old cliche', actions speak louder than words.

Of course he isnt paying the bills on his salary....he's made his money by wisely investing his money over 40 years in carefully chosen companies....something you too can do if you read The Millionaire Next Door and follow its lessons. Or should I assume from the suggestion in your message that Buffett should subsidize you or me simply because he's smart and disciplined? News flash for you - he already does through higher taxes.

Since you have such good sources, maybe you can do this: post how much each management member of NJA makes, and I'm not talking just salary. I mean stock options, bonuses, executive perks, usage of company equipment, expense accounts. Basically, all that they get that pilots don't.

I wish I could, but I dont know what the managers of NJA make, nor do I care. What I care about is making enough money to feed my family and pay my mortgage, which I can currently do.

However, thanks to the power of the internet, I can post how much the leaders of the Teamsters make:

http://www.tdu.org/HoffaWatch/Club2004/club2004.html

Looks to me like 30+ years of Teamsters representation at NetJets has helped line the pockets of the people on this list, but they havent helped our pilots. Tell me again why I should join a union?

 

[CapnVegetto]

WRONG. The union has been in place at Executive Jet/NetJets for over 30 years....long before Mr. Santulli came into the picture. Ask some of your NJ pilot friends for confirmation if you like. And again, if you arent part of NetJets then how do you know what's happened internally at NetJets?

OK, I might've been wrong on this one. I'll admit when I'm wrong. But.....you can't argue that there had to be a reason it was formed. Now, it is needed.

NetJets doesnt make money on fuel. We charge our owners our actual cost of fuel so any savings on fuel go to the owners - not management, not employees.

I know that. I was asking a question to get an idea of management's intentions. You didn't answer it.

You're not part of NetJets but you know all the details of our problems.... Again, are you in on the negotiations or are you relying on the information people post on bulletin boards?

See my previous post

Okay....Continental airlines. How about this one - what good (or bad) aviation company with bad labor relations is making money right now? How about Fedex and UPS?

Continental isn't making money. They're still losing. Granted, they're losing less than everyone else, but they're still losing. And don't forget the fact that they probably have the BEST labor relations of all the Legacy carriers. FedEx and UPS have bad labor relations? News to me. How many FedEx and UPS pilots are on TV calling their management scumbags. Hell, how many FedEx and UPS pilots bitch about bad life on this forum?

Of course he isnt paying the bills on his salary....he's made his money by wisely investing his money over 40 years in carefully chosen companies....something you too can do if you read The Millionaire Next Door and follow its lessons. Or should I assume from the suggestion in your message that Buffett should subsidize you or me simply because he's smart and disciplined? News flash for you - he already does through higher taxes.

I wish I could, but I dont know what the managers of NJA make, nor do I care. What I care about is making enough money to feed my family and pay my mortgage, which I can currently do.

However, thanks to the power of the internet, I can post how much the leaders of the Teamsters make:

http://www.tdu.org/HoffaWatch/Club2004/club2004.html

Looks to me like 30+ years of Teamsters representation at NetJets has helped line the pockets of the people on this list, but they havent helped our pilots. Tell me again why I should join a union?

I never said you should, I never said I was pro-union. I'm anti-hypocritical management, and that INCLUDES management of unions. Show me that the pilots at NJA aren't getting screwed, and I'll shut up. But until you do so, it's not gonna happen.

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[FamilyGuy]

Amen Amigo.

You're right here. Exactly why I'm not pro union. I will agree, sometimes cuts are needed. But in this example, we're back to the same ol' thing. Management still paying themselves and their cronies millions, and bugging labor for even MORE cuts instead of developing a better business plan and finding other ways to save.

We both agree on this Capn. It is inexcusable for management to make millions while asking workers for concessions. The pain should be shared.

Makes sense to me. However the big problem is the union doesn't believe management. They believe that management is corrupt. How can the other companies be making money while NJA isn't? See my previous posts about operating costs.

The lack of trust in both groups IMO is the biggest problem to getting a deal done and getting this behind us. As for which companies make money, our mgmt has already stated internally and publicly in the BRK annual report that the US operation makes money and we lose money in Europe. Mr. Santulli and the managers have stated that the Pilots deserve a raise and will get one...the debate is over the size of the raise.

After being in this industry and others for so long I've grown tired of this bickering....the company needs to take care of its people and give them a fair increase, and the union needs to realize they cant take the whole pie....other employees need to feed their families as well and Mr. Santulli and Berkshire need to be rewarded for their leadership and capital. We also need to set aside money to continue to grow the business. This all looks really silly when you realize how lucky we are....most companies in aviation arent making money - they are cutting jobs.

That's how a lot of people are. If that's what your labor wants, then you're gonna have to deal with it. People have mortgages, college funds, car payments......they have to know what's coming. There are bad apples, yes, as always. But your company is going to run better and more profitably with happy labor. Period. I go back to what I said earlier.....you can't run a service business with pi$$ed off labor. Look at every single airline out there. The ones with happy labor and good business plans are the ones making money.

Agreed.

Because I can READ. And I'm not talking about just message boards. I'm talking news reports, etc. Not to mention all the people that work there that I know.

Sounds like we rely on the same sources for information.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I wonder why management made a REVISED offer brfore facing the NMB. Could it be they knew the last offer showed bad faith?

 

[FAcFriend]

El,

Could it be they did not want to go into deep freeze any more than you do?

I think the new offer is about clarification - contract to offer.
Not TA to offer. The TA is dead. You guys killed it. Not sure why you are comparing the TA to anything anymore.

Look at the contract- look at the offer. Your benefits = about 15k per person. Was the financial incentive more than 15k per person with the new cafeteria proposal?

Many were having a hard time understanding - so I think the new proposal goes back to the current contract (not dead TA) and redefines things. Havent seen it. I hope the MEC relseases it to all.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I understood it the first time. No raise at all.

If they want people who would accept this they should have included a math test in the interview and only hire folks who cannot count.

There will not be less money in what we agree to now then there was in the failed TA. There will be MORE. Or there will be no agreement.


If (in the unlikely event) the present MEC were to present and try to sell a TA that has less money in it then the TA we voted down with an 82% vote ... they will be hung by their cajones from the highest rafters in Columbus.

Ooops... let me say that is a figure of speech... for those who don't recognize them when ythey see them.