Strike Vote Called For at NetJets

[fischman]

I knew you were a POS When I first met you, and you have done everything possible to verify my initial opinion.

You're really letting him get to you aren't you? Perhaps there is a little guilt behind that anger?

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

 

[T-1GUY]

Too bad he couldn't funnel some of that anger into supporting his fellow pilots...

 

[Some guy]

Pencil whipping is a reality. I have filed several reports, and as usual the response is "We'll look in to it" and I never hear a thing about it. If I'm seeing it, then everyone else is too. In other words, I believe it is not only a daily occurrence, but an hourly one.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

You have seen it, but it's just your opinion? Who are you reporting this to? Are you going back and asking for followup? Have you tried the CMH FSDO? Can you provide a scenario you have witnessed yourself? Your comment indicates it's happening everywhere, so you must have something.

I was always under the impression you guys were happy that you flew aircraft that were well maintained. I personally apologize to all of you that this is far from the truth.

SG

 

[jtf]

The NetJets traveling mechanics do a great job. I have not seen them doing anything but go out of the way to help, even when their managers have told them to only do what was specifically ordered. I haven't seen anything suspicious at NetJets and EJM repair facilities, or at Cessna Service Centers. I have seen all of the above told to wear blinders when repairing our birds so they wouldn't accidentally find anything else that is broken.

That said, mx control puts tremendous pressure on the contract mx to get the airplanes moving and I firmly believe that many of them are pencil whipping and/ or knowingly doing a little bit and claiming it's all good to go. I've watched NetJets mx tackle specific problems and then watched contract mx do the same repairs without any of the actual fixing part. I've witnessed many unsat things from the contracters. I probably shouldn't be talking specifics there.

I have another mx story that is so heinous that I honestly fear to put it here even on this semi anonymous board. It is so bad that I fear the company would try to hunt me down and possibly find me and fire me. This place makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about all the ways safety had been compromised since RS was shown the door.

 

[fischman]

You have seen it, but it's just your opinion? Who are you reporting this to? Are you going back and asking for followup? Have you tried the CMH FSDO? Can you provide a scenario you have witnessed yourself? Your comment indicates it's happening everywhere, so you must have something.



I was always under the impression you guys were happy that you flew aircraft that were well maintained. I personally apologize to all of you that this is far from the truth.



SG

1) There's legalese in there to protect myself.

2) I have filed several ASAP reports.

3) The CMH FSDO is known by many other FSDO's to be highly corrupt. To rely on action by them is foolish.

4) I will not comment on the specific situations I have personally witnessed.

 

[Some guy]

1) There's legalese in there to protect myself.

2) I have filed several ASAP reports.

3) The CMH FSDO is known by many other FSDO's to be highly corrupt. To rely on action by them is foolish.

4) I will not comment on the specific situations I have personally witnessed.

Believe what you will. Not even sure why I try to talk sense to the same 8-9 haters on this board anyways. Again, sorry the equipment you fly on is so run down.

SG

 

[gutshotdraw]

Believe what you will. Not even sure why I try to talk sense to the same 8-9 haters on this board anyways. Again, sorry the equipment you fly on is so run down.

SG

Easy for you to say when you're nice and comfy at your DESK and we're the ones who have to FLY them.

Believe what YOU will.

 

[ttuite]

Net Jets seems to have the same problems that all other companies have right now. The nice thing is, that is seems that there are pilots there willing to do something about it. That is a good thing. Somebody has to draw the line. It is that drawing of the line that made Net Jets the place to work 7 years ago. The pay was great, the working conditions were great, and the flying was pretty good. Now the rest of the industry has caught up with you pay wise, and you have a bean counter trying to cut costs. You will soon, if not already, see a loss of qualified individuals wanting to work there. I personally would love to leave my ACMI job and work at Net Jets, but would not do so because of the pay cut. I am an FO working at what would be considered a lower tier ACMI carrier, and I would have to take a 30K pay cut to work at Net Jets. With no chance of an upgrade to more money in the left seat, I cannot justify the move. Net Jets was a strong company because they paid their people well, and ran their company right. Now that things have changed I see the whole business eventually crashing to the ground unless they return to what made them great in the first place. Great pay and benefits, along with great maintenance, makes for a great customer experience. The economy is getting better. As it does more companies will want to get away from the inefficiencies of airline travel. Net Jets needs to get their house in order to reap the benefits of this pending need by business. Raise your rates to pay for your increased cost. It is really that simple. Pay people what they are worth and they will be professionals. Don't pay them and they will become something you don't like

 

[Some guy]

Easy for you to say when you're nice and comfy at your DESK and we're the ones who have to FLY them.

Believe what YOU will.

Easy for me to say what? All I did was apologize for the low quality equipment you are flying. Read through all of my my posts, I never said your job was easy.

 

[Some guy]

1) There's legalese in there to protect myself.

2) I have filed several ASAP reports.

3) The CMH FSDO is known by many other FSDO's to be highly corrupt. To rely on action by them is foolish.

4) I will not comment on the specific situations I have personally witnessed.

ASAP reports are reviewed by Safety and the local corrupt FSDO.

What is stopping you from talking to another FSDO? If the CMH techs are fine, then the CMH FSDO isnt who you want to talk to. If you suspect something on the road, call the applicable FSDO. You apparently know many of them anyways.

 

[Pervis]

Some Guy, I don't see pencil whipping, but I do see lots of can not duplicates. I have spoken with many techs all over the country and the one common thread is the cheap bastards in CMH who want the world for peanuts.

There is zero preventive mx as well. For example, the X electric window shades are becoming an increasing issue. The right side requires the galley be detached. Do they authorize the inspection of all the belts and tracks? Do they authorize the tech use an amp meter to inspect the motor? Nope. Do the minimum, even when it takes lots of man hours to repair just one.

If a wing is found lying on the ground during the course of inspection, they can't do a thing about it without specific work orders. Why not let the techs repair what they find on the spot? Worried about over charging? Poor excuse. Techs who pull that crap are soon out of work.

 

[Some guy]

Some Guy, I don't see pencil whipping, but I do see lots of can not duplicates. I have spoken with many techs all over the country and the one common thread is the cheap bastards in CMH who want the world for peanuts.

There is zero preventive mx as well. For example, the X electric window shades are becoming an increasing issue. The right side requires the galley be detached. Do they authorize the inspection of all the belts and tracks? Do they authorize the tech use an amp meter to inspect the motor? Nope. Do the minimum, even when it takes lots of man hours to repair just one.

If a wing is found lying on the ground during the course of inspection, they can't do a thing about it without specific work orders. Why not let the techs repair what they find on the spot? Worried about over charging? Poor excuse. Techs who pull that crap are soon out of work.

I can't speak for much of the base / scheduled maintenance. I could see where the minimum required might be done to push it out the door. I know when Cessna sends a list "additional items" found during inspection, we authorize repair of nearly everything.

We had a GIV fail an APU door actuator one day in Europe. Luckily, someone beat it with their shoe and got it to work. I requested the actuator get replaced when it came back before it failed again. Three weeks later I see the same tail AOG because the door wouldn't open. I asked why the actuator never got replaced earlier. Gulfstream refused because they don't replace operable parts under GMP. The point is, you see inefficiencies as do we but sometimes we don't have control. Of course we have many of our own inefficiencies, but the aggravations you see on the road aren't always our fault.

The CND issue is no fun for anyone. The guys have enough to do without having to deal with the same things over and over. There could be many reasons for a CND, some of which I mentioned a while back. Many times, we'll reposition like parts from the #1 to #2 side if we can't duplicate it. If it comes back a second time! we'll either know what it is or what it isn't.

SG

 

[fischman]

ASAP reports are reviewed by Safety and the local corrupt FSDO.

What is stopping you from talking to another FSDO? If the CMH techs are fine, then the CMH FSDO isnt who you want to talk to. If you suspect something on the road, call the applicable FSDO. You apparently know many of them anyways.

As a matter of fact, I have family that works at a FSDO and have briefed him fully.

Ever hear the saying "Never push a loyal employee to the point they don't give a damn?" I'm not the only one. As you know pilots are heading to the majors at an alarming rate.

 

[Diesel]

I can't speak for much of the base / scheduled maintenance. I could see where the minimum required might be done to push it out the door. I know when Cessna sends a list "additional items" found during inspection, we authorize repair of nearly everything.

We had a GIV fail an APU door actuator one day in Europe. Luckily, someone beat it with their shoe and got it to work. I requested the actuator get replaced when it came back before it failed again. Three weeks later I see the same tail AOG because the door wouldn't open. I asked why the actuator never got replaced earlier. Gulfstream refused because they don't replace operable parts under GMP. The point is, you see inefficiencies as do we but sometimes we don't have control. Of course we have many of our own inefficiencies, but the aggravations you see on the road aren't always our fault.

The CND issue is no fun for anyone. The guys have enough to do without having to deal with the same things over and over. There could be many reasons for a CND, some of which I mentioned a while back. Many times, we'll reposition like parts from the #1 to #2 side if we can't duplicate it. If it comes back a second time! we'll either know what it is or what it isn't.

SG

Lol when is beating it with a shoe an approved MX fix? How is that luckily? Was it lucky because then the plane kept moving? What if that APU was needed in flight and the door wouldn't work because nobody was back there with the shoe? (I know the pau inflight doesn't work that way, but what if it was needed asap)

Honestly I think your shoe story pretty much sums up what everyone is saying and you're thinking it's normal. Who recommended him to go up there and pound on it with a shoe? Did he call MX and they said you know it's probably stuck pound on it with a shoe. The reason this makes me chuckle is because MX told me to use a broom handle to open my door. That sounds easier than a shoe.

Good thing I didn't need a broom handle an MEL was on the way instead.

I wonder if the majors use the "beating it with a shoe" method. Thanks for the chuckle this AM.

 

[Some guy]

Lol when is beating it with a shoe an approved MX fix? How is that luckily? Was it lucky because then the plane kept moving? What if that APU was needed in flight and the door wouldn't work because nobody was back there with the shoe? (I know the pau inflight doesn't work that way, but what if it was needed asap)

Honestly I think your shoe story pretty much sums up what everyone is saying and you're thinking it's normal. Who recommended him to go up there and pound on it with a shoe? Did he call MX and they said you know it's probably stuck pound on it with a shoe. The reason this makes me chuckle is because MX told me to use a broom handle to open my door. That sounds easier than a shoe.

Good thing I didn't need a broom handle an MEL was on the way instead.

I wonder if the majors use the "beating it with a shoe" method. Thanks for the chuckle this AM.

The guys got the call with the explanation as a heads up. Nobody told them to do anything. The point of the whole story was that those who are trying to work with you aren't the ones making policy. They are the ones trying to take care of your airplanes, yet they're being accused of numerous things...all because you're pissed at the company or EMT or whomever hurts your feelings. Instead of trying to understand the point I was trying to make through adult dialogue, you want to babble and be an ass all because you have a point to make.

I said earlier, be pissed at the EMT for whatever reason, but not the employees who may sympathize with your cause. We're not pilots, so we're the bad guys right?

You guys make us laugh at you too.

SG

 

[Some guy]

As a matter of fact, I have family that works at a FSDO and have briefed him fully.

Ever hear the saying "Never push a loyal employee to the point they don't give a damn?" I'm not the only one. As you know pilots are heading to the majors at an alarming rate.

Good, maybe your family member can get a little further with checking things out. If you ever came and sat with the guys, you'd see they're not the horrible monsters they're made out to be. They actually care about what they are doing.

You won't see me dispute the aggravations you guys have. I know some are leaving and I understand most of the reasons why. I don't understand the hate and discontent for fellow employees...especially those who are in the process of becoming union brothers / sisters. I don't understand embellishing stories to make company employees look bad on a public forum. I don't agree with the antics that are played on your side, but I understand it.

I hope things get worked out before we're all unemployed. For those who have had enough, good luck. I wouldn't stay where I'm miserable either.

SG

 

[Diesel]

The guys got the call with the explanation as a heads up. Nobody told them to do anything. The point of the whole story was that those who are trying to work with you aren't the ones making policy. They are the ones trying to take care of your airplanes, yet they're being accused of numerous things...all because you're pissed at the company or EMT or whomever hurts your feelings. Instead of trying to understand the point I was trying to make through adult dialogue, you want to babble and be an ass all because you have a point to make.

I said earlier, be pissed at the EMT for whatever reason, but not the employees who may sympathize with your cause. We're not pilots, so we're the bad guys right?

You guys make us laugh at you too.

SG

I'm not accusing you of anything. You thought banging on an actuator with a shoe was Lucky. I told you I was told to use a broom stick. It's tough to make an accusation when I was the party it was told to.

I'm not pissed at anyone. If it's broke it get's written up. Simple no big deal.

Banging with a shoe isn't my idea of a fix.

What I don't understand and maybe you could help me wrap my head around it where has the preventative mx gone. Whenever I flew a gulfsteam into HPN or TEB or PBI a mechanic would be all over it at night. filling fluids, checking light bulbs everything. Now nothing. There is no preventative MX at all.

So that leads me to my next issue we must have the worlds biggest database on when parts break on corporate planes. We must know that a generator goes out on an XL in 200 hours lets say. Why isn't there a system in place to replace that generator at 190 hours. Sure we are going to be replacing some before they would have broken but we would know when that is and the chance of impacting a revenue trip is less.

Now that same generator isn't replaced unless it actually breaks. Impacting owner trips and causing havoc with the scheduling. How much did they really save getting another 20hours out of that plane?

I always wondered this....

 

[Some guy]

I'm not accusing you of anything. You thought banging on an actuator with a shoe was Lucky. I told you I was told to use a broom stick. It's tough to make an accusation when I was the party it was told to.

I'm not pissed at anyone. If it's broke it get's written up. Simple no big deal.

Banging with a shoe isn't my idea of a fix.

What I don't understand and maybe you could help me wrap my head around it where has the preventative mx gone. Whenever I flew a gulfsteam into HPN or TEB or PBI a mechanic would be all over it at night. filling fluids, checking light bulbs everything. Now nothing. There is no preventative MX at all.

So that leads me to my next issue we must have the worlds biggest database on when parts break on corporate planes. We must know that a generator goes out on an XL in 200 hours lets say. Why isn't there a system in place to replace that generator at 190 hours. Sure we are going to be replacing some before they would have broken but we would know when that is and the chance of impacting a revenue trip is less.

Now that same generator isn't replaced unless it actually breaks. Impacting owner trips and causing havoc with the scheduling. How much did they really save getting another 20hours out of that plane?

I always wondered this....

The pool of qualified techs has dwindled over the years. The pay isn't there to keep anyone around. Couple that with the increase in AOG events in the last year and the checklists get pushed to the back. (Note these checklists are created by the operator and are not regulatory). We used to be able to work them more when there were lulls in the flight schedule. The flight schedule is so busy, we don't get those windows any more. I don't like it either. When you find items needing addressed, I agree that it's gets documented whether it's AOG or a deferral.

We have an engineering department that monitors trends. Your example of the generator...It's been a long time for me, but I think one of the types gets replaced at 600 hours. Through OEM testing, they're probably pretty reliable to 750 hours. (I don't know the actual numbers) occasionally they don't make it to 600. That said, some may not make it to 50. When you're running 250 generators on the XL fleet for example, you're going to have the occasional failure. Say we decide to replace them at 575 hours in attempt to prevent 10 failures. Now you're losing 6250 hours of use (that OEM warranty won't reimburse) to save 10 failures. Add to that the increased maintenance intervals at $100 per maintenance hour...it all adds up. I'm not a bean counter, but it kind of gives you an idea of the compounding losses when trying to save a little. We could replace them at 50 hours and still have failures. That's how most component replacement intervals are figured...with an acceptable failure rate combined with acceptable risk for failure. I'm not fond of thinking about acceptable failure rates in aviation either. Thankfully, most crews will report a vibration or soot coming out of the generator exhaust and we can fix it before it actually fails.

I totally agree with you that letting an owner down is the last thing you want to do and I don't envy you standing in front of him / her to give the news.

SG

 

[fischman]

Good, maybe your family member can get a little further with checking things out. If you ever came and sat with the guys, you'd see they're not the horrible monsters they're made out to be. They actually care about what they are doing.

You won't see me dispute the aggravations you guys have. I know some are leaving and I understand most of the reasons why. I don't understand the hate and discontent for fellow employees...especially those who are in the process of becoming union brothers / sisters. I don't understand embellishing stories to make company employees look bad on a public forum. I don't agree with the antics that are played on your side, but I understand it.

I hope things get worked out before we're all unemployed. For those who have had enough, good luck. I wouldn't stay where I'm miserable either.

SG

I wouldn't call it hate. It's frustration. We're frustrated. You're frustrated. The owners are frustrated.

Everyone knows the solution, but Warren won't do a thing about it.

 

[shanes123]

This whole Industry is frustrating. Same ******************** at FLOPS..Dont fix a damn thing.And they have enough ass kissers to fly broke all week long.