FL510GV
Junior Birdman
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- Dec 6, 2001
- Posts
- 154
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Stop-Loss
- Thread starter FL510GV
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ETXflyer
JAGOB
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
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- 31
Hmmmm?
Here's just a few of the AFSC (officers) they are releasing:
42F-podiatrist
42T-occupational therapist
47P-prosthodontist (i don't even know what this is)
45N-otorhinolaryngobgist (or this)
45G-gynecologist
44P-psychologist
35P-public affairs
I am in the training end of things and admit I have a pretty limited view of what is going on. I'd appreciate another perspective from you guys on the pointy end. Here are a few questions/comments I'd like to see some of y'all with a different take, post on.
1) I find it a bit insulting that the AF is trying to pass off the release of these AFSC's today (and I quote from the article) as an "exit plan [that] calls for a gradual draw down from Stop-Loss, which means we want to continue to release AFSC's with each new review as long as we are able to maintain sufficient forces to meet mission req'mts." Did they really need to postpone the review almost 2 weeks to figure out that they could release all the gynecologists and psychiatrists?
2) If OPS tempo is so high and we are so critically manned, why is the Navy/Army/MC not taking such measures.
3) In the above article, Lt.Col. Jan Middleton from the Pentagon says "Though its easy to make that assumption [That stop loss is being used as a manning tool] it is absolutely not true." Although Lt Col Middleton says this, stop loss waivers at Laughlin are not being approved simply because mgt wants to keep manning numbers up for the swap to T-6s. What gives?
I am proud to be serving my country, especially during times such as these. It frustrates me, however, to be sitting in an very overmanned training sqdn and not able to separate. We've even had guys try to volunteer to go back to their MWS to help out. AFPC reply: "pull your papers and you can". Hope this don't piss off you folks that are deployed, I sure don't mean to, cause I've been there. I'd just like some straight shootin for a change.
Here's just a few of the AFSC (officers) they are releasing:
42F-podiatrist
42T-occupational therapist
47P-prosthodontist (i don't even know what this is)
45N-otorhinolaryngobgist (or this)
45G-gynecologist
44P-psychologist
35P-public affairs
I am in the training end of things and admit I have a pretty limited view of what is going on. I'd appreciate another perspective from you guys on the pointy end. Here are a few questions/comments I'd like to see some of y'all with a different take, post on.
1) I find it a bit insulting that the AF is trying to pass off the release of these AFSC's today (and I quote from the article) as an "exit plan [that] calls for a gradual draw down from Stop-Loss, which means we want to continue to release AFSC's with each new review as long as we are able to maintain sufficient forces to meet mission req'mts." Did they really need to postpone the review almost 2 weeks to figure out that they could release all the gynecologists and psychiatrists?
2) If OPS tempo is so high and we are so critically manned, why is the Navy/Army/MC not taking such measures.
3) In the above article, Lt.Col. Jan Middleton from the Pentagon says "Though its easy to make that assumption [That stop loss is being used as a manning tool] it is absolutely not true." Although Lt Col Middleton says this, stop loss waivers at Laughlin are not being approved simply because mgt wants to keep manning numbers up for the swap to T-6s. What gives?
I am proud to be serving my country, especially during times such as these. It frustrates me, however, to be sitting in an very overmanned training sqdn and not able to separate. We've even had guys try to volunteer to go back to their MWS to help out. AFPC reply: "pull your papers and you can". Hope this don't piss off you folks that are deployed, I sure don't mean to, cause I've been there. I'd just like some straight shootin for a change.
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welcome to the club!
I'm in the same boat you're in. Squadron's about 110% manned (not including Reservists), but leadership here's not releasing anyone unless they're going to a reserve job; you know, like the critical Squadron Exec and AF Academy liason jobs that desperately need to be filled (can't say I blame these lucky scammers). And they still haven't caught the clue that a lot of the folks (at least here) who say they're going to the Reserves, have no intention of actually doing so once they're out (can't blame them either).
The other issue is this idea that you're supposed to be suffering some "hardship" in order to justiy your waiver request. Excuse me! Catch a clue General! Either I'm needed, or I'm not, regardless of my personal situation.
Oh, and as far as going back to support a genuinely under-manned, critical MWS, forget it. You must indeed pull your papers; otherwise, you're on PCS freeze.
I'm in the same boat you're in. Squadron's about 110% manned (not including Reservists), but leadership here's not releasing anyone unless they're going to a reserve job; you know, like the critical Squadron Exec and AF Academy liason jobs that desperately need to be filled (can't say I blame these lucky scammers). And they still haven't caught the clue that a lot of the folks (at least here) who say they're going to the Reserves, have no intention of actually doing so once they're out (can't blame them either).
The other issue is this idea that you're supposed to be suffering some "hardship" in order to justiy your waiver request. Excuse me! Catch a clue General! Either I'm needed, or I'm not, regardless of my personal situation.
Oh, and as far as going back to support a genuinely under-manned, critical MWS, forget it. You must indeed pull your papers; otherwise, you're on PCS freeze.
JayhawkDude
Just happy to be here!
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2002
- Posts
- 88
I have a dream!
You know, until I saw the list of released AFSCs, I had finally believed the propaganda- we're all one big happy team in the Air Force. I believed what the big guys we're saying- it takes everyone to do the mission. The pilot at the tip of the spear is no more important than the guy at finance (or the podiatrist or clinical genetist or otorhinolaryngologist!) I guess the Air Force is saying that these guys aren't as important as the pilots! I can't believe it! I'm going to call Public Affairs and get the Air Force's official position. Oops, I'm sorry, I guess they were released and went home!
All I know is I'm in trouble if stop-loss doesn't end soon. My wife is about to flip because I'm stuck in stop-loss! I need to take her to the clinical social worker- not gonna happen! Then I'll need help from the podiatrist when I stick my foot somewhere it doesn't belong and AFPC is gonna need a dentist. They'll have to send me to a psychologist, but I won't be able to find one since they're all released. I guess they'll prosecute me and I'll need a JAG, but no such luck...
Oh well, at least we're 10 days closer to the next stop-loss message!
You know, until I saw the list of released AFSCs, I had finally believed the propaganda- we're all one big happy team in the Air Force. I believed what the big guys we're saying- it takes everyone to do the mission. The pilot at the tip of the spear is no more important than the guy at finance (or the podiatrist or clinical genetist or otorhinolaryngologist!) I guess the Air Force is saying that these guys aren't as important as the pilots! I can't believe it! I'm going to call Public Affairs and get the Air Force's official position. Oops, I'm sorry, I guess they were released and went home!
All I know is I'm in trouble if stop-loss doesn't end soon. My wife is about to flip because I'm stuck in stop-loss! I need to take her to the clinical social worker- not gonna happen! Then I'll need help from the podiatrist when I stick my foot somewhere it doesn't belong and AFPC is gonna need a dentist. They'll have to send me to a psychologist, but I won't be able to find one since they're all released. I guess they'll prosecute me and I'll need a JAG, but no such luck...
Oh well, at least we're 10 days closer to the next stop-loss message!
YeOldeProp
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2002
- Posts
- 102
Heeeey Zman300 and other dignified readers...
We're getting a solid downhill flow from AFPC about the stoploss AFSC's, but not a lot about the longer range views from those guys as far as the PCS programs that are in place or are being reworked. We've got a bunch of folks reaching their magic 2 years on station and getting vulnerable for moves (and the 2 year commitment that no one wants to tack onto their already short times left in the AF). You mentioned that you can't be PCS'd unless you pull your papers...does that mean if you put your papers in that you'll be "frozen in place"? The discussion at the water cooler today bounced off this subject a couple times, and with the complete lack of any credible evidence coming out of higher HQ, the rumor mongerers are in rare form. Got any insight, or just passing along what's floating around your squadron?
Any other inputs from the cheap seats up behind right field??? If the hiring stays this way, you'll be able to recognize me as the friendly beer man working the empty sections...
We're getting a solid downhill flow from AFPC about the stoploss AFSC's, but not a lot about the longer range views from those guys as far as the PCS programs that are in place or are being reworked. We've got a bunch of folks reaching their magic 2 years on station and getting vulnerable for moves (and the 2 year commitment that no one wants to tack onto their already short times left in the AF). You mentioned that you can't be PCS'd unless you pull your papers...does that mean if you put your papers in that you'll be "frozen in place"? The discussion at the water cooler today bounced off this subject a couple times, and with the complete lack of any credible evidence coming out of higher HQ, the rumor mongerers are in rare form. Got any insight, or just passing along what's floating around your squadron?
Any other inputs from the cheap seats up behind right field??? If the hiring stays this way, you'll be able to recognize me as the friendly beer man working the empty sections...
Prop,
From the AFPC road show I got last week, they (the flesh peddlers) said that if you put in your papers then you are no longer eligible for a PCS and you'll remain in place. Added to that, they have to assume that Stop Loss will end at any time and will program a vacancy at your separation date (btw this happened to me -- I should have separated a month ago -- my replacement has been on station for two months now while I've move to an open desk in the corner and spend my four hours a day at work reading the paper and surfing the net. Guess it's good to be "essential"
).
From the AFPC road show I got last week, they (the flesh peddlers) said that if you put in your papers then you are no longer eligible for a PCS and you'll remain in place. Added to that, they have to assume that Stop Loss will end at any time and will program a vacancy at your separation date (btw this happened to me -- I should have separated a month ago -- my replacement has been on station for two months now while I've move to an open desk in the corner and spend my four hours a day at work reading the paper and surfing the net. Guess it's good to be "essential"
).
ETXflyer
JAGOB
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 31
More rumor and guessin
Here's my take,
If you have your papers in I don't think they will move you. They probably could PCS you (I think they can do whatever they want to when it comes right down to it) but even if they did, they caint make you incur any extra commitment. SO, if they did PCS you to BFE and stop loss ended the next day - you'd be a free man.
Now here is my question. If this thing keeps stringin out, how long can they keep us under stop loss. For some reason, I was thinkin they could only keep you in 1 year past your DOS (indentured servitude and all), but I think that is probably wishful thinking on my part. Anybody know for sure?
Thats all I can come up with for now.
Adios,
ETX
"Let my people go." -Moses
"No." - Pharoh and AFPC
Here's my take,
If you have your papers in I don't think they will move you. They probably could PCS you (I think they can do whatever they want to when it comes right down to it) but even if they did, they caint make you incur any extra commitment. SO, if they did PCS you to BFE and stop loss ended the next day - you'd be a free man.
Now here is my question. If this thing keeps stringin out, how long can they keep us under stop loss. For some reason, I was thinkin they could only keep you in 1 year past your DOS (indentured servitude and all), but I think that is probably wishful thinking on my part. Anybody know for sure?
Thats all I can come up with for now.
Adios,
ETX
"Let my people go." -Moses
"No." - Pharoh and AFPC
YeOldeProp and Zulua320:
YeOlde Prop:
Zulua320 may have gotten more recent insight based on his post. The official word on AFPC's web site, though, is that you will not be PCS'd IF you have an "approved separation/retirement date." Submitting your separation request may not be enough, but again, based on Zulua320's post, there may be more to the story.
Zulua320:
You're still showing up at work?! Admirable
YeOlde Prop:
Zulua320 may have gotten more recent insight based on his post. The official word on AFPC's web site, though, is that you will not be PCS'd IF you have an "approved separation/retirement date." Submitting your separation request may not be enough, but again, based on Zulua320's post, there may be more to the story.
zulua320 said:Prop,
From the AFPC road show I got last week, they (the flesh peddlers) said that if you put in your papers then you are no longer eligible for a PCS and you'll remain in place. Added to that, they have to assume that Stop Loss will end at any time and will program a vacancy at your separation date (btw this happened to me -- I should have separated a month ago -- my replacement has been on station for two months now while I've move to an open desk in the corner and spend my four hours a day at work reading the paper and surfing the net. Guess it's good to be "essential"
Zulua320:
You're still showing up at work?! Admirable
zman300,
You're technically correct -- it's the "approved retirement/separation date" that makes you immune to PCS orders. Putting you papers in, however, will generate an "approved retirement/separation date" that won't be worth anything until Stop Loss is lifted, but it will prevent AFPC from giving you an assignment.
Man, I've got waaaaay too much time on my hands if I've been able to figure this out.
You're technically correct -- it's the "approved retirement/separation date" that makes you immune to PCS orders. Putting you papers in, however, will generate an "approved retirement/separation date" that won't be worth anything until Stop Loss is lifted, but it will prevent AFPC from giving you an assignment.
Man, I've got waaaaay too much time on my hands if I've been able to figure this out.
llowwelll
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2002
- Posts
- 81
ETXFlyer,
I had the same question about how long they can keep us on stop loss and a little too much time on my hands. So, I did some research and didn't come up with a very encouraging answer. Basically, as long as the Reserves are called up, the President has the authority to suspend the laws related to retirement and separation. The limit on the time the Reserves can be called up varies (depending on which section of the law they are applying) from 270 days to indefinite. I'd bet that the current call-up falls under the indefinite category. The reference for all of this is at this link: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/12305.html. Bottom line, it appears they've got us for as long as they feel like it.
It seems that the link may not be working...so here's the full reference: Title 10, Subtitle E, Part II, Chapter 1209, Section 12305.
I had the same question about how long they can keep us on stop loss and a little too much time on my hands. So, I did some research and didn't come up with a very encouraging answer. Basically, as long as the Reserves are called up, the President has the authority to suspend the laws related to retirement and separation. The limit on the time the Reserves can be called up varies (depending on which section of the law they are applying) from 270 days to indefinite. I'd bet that the current call-up falls under the indefinite category. The reference for all of this is at this link: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/12305.html. Bottom line, it appears they've got us for as long as they feel like it.
It seems that the link may not be working...so here's the full reference: Title 10, Subtitle E, Part II, Chapter 1209, Section 12305.
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YeOldeProp
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2002
- Posts
- 102
Impressive research folks...so much time in the books/computer/regs deserves a bit of time out in the aircraft forgetting about all the mess. So, go get yourself some air time (if you can) and enjoy the scenery from whatever altitude you decide.
We've got some of our younger pilots getting really edgy about all this. And, since they've never seen the staff side of the house and the chaos involved from action officer up through the colonels putting their spin on what they think the general means, they're getting pretty wound up in every rumor that goes. Seems everyone on Stoploss is "destined to Camp Red Cloud or an exchange tour with the Saudi's" despite separation dates. We'll get onto that Cornell site, 'cause there's not much info available on this paperless AFPC site and the regs are still being written by lawyers.
Guess we need to bring back the codebreakers from Bletchley Park...
We've got some of our younger pilots getting really edgy about all this. And, since they've never seen the staff side of the house and the chaos involved from action officer up through the colonels putting their spin on what they think the general means, they're getting pretty wound up in every rumor that goes. Seems everyone on Stoploss is "destined to Camp Red Cloud or an exchange tour with the Saudi's" despite separation dates. We'll get onto that Cornell site, 'cause there's not much info available on this paperless AFPC site and the regs are still being written by lawyers.
Guess we need to bring back the codebreakers from Bletchley Park...
Stop Loss... Stop the Pain...
It amazes me that USAFE and PACAF can release folks to retire etc but ACC is riding the hardline. I am expecting most of us retirment eligible types will be pulled from our cockpits and placed in some crappy AOC jobs in dung heaps overseas...
If the real crap is going to hit the proverbial fan keeps us in our cockpits so we can go break stuff and get this all over with...
The fool from the Pentagon is lying if he can't admit that ACC is using Stop Loss as a manning number control tool...
"Krunch"
It amazes me that USAFE and PACAF can release folks to retire etc but ACC is riding the hardline. I am expecting most of us retirment eligible types will be pulled from our cockpits and placed in some crappy AOC jobs in dung heaps overseas...
If the real crap is going to hit the proverbial fan keeps us in our cockpits so we can go break stuff and get this all over with...
The fool from the Pentagon is lying if he can't admit that ACC is using Stop Loss as a manning number control tool...
"Krunch"
Re: Stop Loss... Stop the Pain...
Imagine how we in AETC feel. I suppose I could drop a student from my mighty Jayhawk on some unsuspecting Al Qaeda after a 10-hop trans-oceanic cross-country (I'd have to stop in Rota for some paella and bread, of course).
It's all too clear we're being lied to. Yesterday, my attached squadron's Ops Officer told my commander his squadron was 100% manned in T-1 pilots. 82 assigned, 72 authorized; yeah, that's 100%.
Krunch said:
Imagine how we in AETC feel. I suppose I could drop a student from my mighty Jayhawk on some unsuspecting Al Qaeda after a 10-hop trans-oceanic cross-country (I'd have to stop in Rota for some paella and bread, of course).
It's all too clear we're being lied to. Yesterday, my attached squadron's Ops Officer told my commander his squadron was 100% manned in T-1 pilots. 82 assigned, 72 authorized; yeah, that's 100%.
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