Stockholm Syndrome: when legacy pilots agree that an a/c CANNOT be flown by mainline

[flyboyike]

WE ARE IN A PERFECT place to draw the line in the sand on scope, and wait for management to come up with plan b on how to get rid of the 50 seaters.

I agree completely, and, in fact, General Lee himself said something very similar not three months ago. Someone must have scared him something awful between then and now.

 

[Scoot 11]

Indeed. I might add benefits current mainline pilots. It does nothing to slow down the decline of the profession as a whole.

One might say it's not the Delta pilots' job to help the profession. Maybe said one is right.

SW has been defending their jobs while doing NOTHING for the profession for 30 years. So why, all of the sudden is it the "Delta pilots'" job to help the profession (kind of reminds me of when we were all going through bankruptcy and the old, "hold the line"). If you want to talk, pay for training, substandard wages, no DB, Southwest is where you want to start pointing fingers for degenerating the profession back in the 80's. They are the ones who set the bar so low.

 

[redflyer65]

I want to make $280 an hour in the left seat of a 777 or 744.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Thanks for hitting the nail on the head Genital.

This is how the whole outsourcing thing started! I want to make big numbers flying the heavy....I don't care about the bottom end/junior guys. It's all about me.

 

[Jar Jar]

WRT 76 seat flying; if the industry moves to reduce 50s then most rj pilot jobs go 76. The result will be 76 seat pilots undercutting eachother in a race to the bottom. This is history, it is fact, and it will happen.

Now when next contract comes around, how are you going to bargain for $150/hr FO's on 150 seat aircraft when the 76 seat FOs are making 28/hr??

 

[flyboyike]

SW has been defending their jobs while doing NOTHING for the profession for 30 years. So why, all of the sudden is it the "Delta pilots'" job to help the profession (kind of reminds me of when we were all going through bankruptcy and the old, "hold the line"). If you want to talk, pay for training, substandard wages, no DB, Southwest is where you want to start pointing fingers for degenerating the profession back in the 80's. They are the ones who set the bar so low.

Even if you're right with respect to WN (and you may well be), do two wrongs really make a right? Especially since WN has no regional feed (at least not yet).

 

[flyboyike]

Now when next contract comes around, how are you going to bargain for $150/hr FO's on 150 seat aircraft when the 76 seat FOs are making 28/hr??

Can you please tell that to every mainline guy you run into? Thank you.

 

[Speedtape]

WRT 76 seat flying; if the industry moves to reduce 50s then most rj pilot jobs go 76. The result will be 76 seat pilots undercutting eachother in a race to the bottom. This is history, it is fact, and it will happen.

Now when next contract comes around, how are you going to bargain for $150/hr FO's on 150 seat aircraft when the 76 seat FOs are making 28/hr??

You must be kidding? $150 an hour F/O for a 150 seat aircraft? How soon do you want to go out of business? Make it $200, then!

Is that in the zone of reasonableness?

 

[Speedtape]

Why would anybody vote one way or another based on "hints" and rumors of what the NMB may or may not do??

Again, pilots have PM'd me to back off DALPA- and I do not care- I know it's not the whole group- but it looks like it'll be ENOUGH. ...

....AGAIN

TO SCREW THE WHOLE INDUSTRY.

OF ALL THE PU$$Y ARGUMENTS I'VE SEEN- this one ^^^^ by GeneralLee is the biggest.

If you guys fall for that crap it's no wonder you've led the charge in outsourcing. Seriously, if you don't know DALPA used to be the pride of all pilot unions globally- where the hell did this group's vaginas go?

If you vote yes, it is your vote, but be rational and accountable for it. Don't fool yourself that it's just about you- you are the largest unified voice airline pilots have in the world- what you do MATTERS- each and every one of you are accountable for the vote you cast as a group.

"my brother's cousin's sister in law had lunch with a clerk in an office that shares the same lunch table as the clerk for Mr Hoglander and he said 'we better vote yes, or we'll be in big trouble(!)'"

Good lord GL- there are plenty of reasons to vote one way or another- that's just weak.

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/orgchart_03-12-12.pdf

It's not weak! Research it! What leverage do you have? There is no justification for the NMB to allow something that is contrary to what the rest of the industry has. Their tendency is never release any labor group that is outside the zone of reasonableness! If they will not release you, you have no leverage! It's called PARKED!

Your arguments seem to be a bit emotional and unrealistic, and your frustration is because your expectations are not in line with what is possible. The Union has to work within in boundaries that they don't get to set, so the idea is to negotiate up to those boundaries. It is not a free shopping spree!

 

[charlie2]

You must be kidding? $150 an hour F/O for a 150 seat aircraft? How soon do you want to go out of business? Make it $200, then!

Is that in the zone of reasonableness?

I wonder if a passenger were asked if they thought that paying the copilot $1 an hour for each passenger was too much what they would say.

 

[charlie2]

You must be kidding? $150 an hour F/O for a 150 seat aircraft? How soon do you want to go out of business? Make it $200, then!

Is that in the zone of reasonableness?

Remember Grampa we are FO's because of DOH....not skill.

 

[Jiminmem]

This TA will pass with an 80% vote "for." Never rule out the FYIGM axiom!

After talking with people on my last few trips, it probably won't be that close. Everyone has basically given up. Same people will probably be screaming when a 76 seat RJ takes over their commutes home.

 

[Jar Jar]

You must be kidding? $150 an hour F/O for a 150 seat aircraft? How soon do you want to go out of business? Make it $200, then!

Is that in the zone of reasonableness?

A bit condescending, no? Im not kidding, many of your cohorts were and still are advocating for 'restoration'. I suppose you aren't among them because thats about where restoration to pre bk levels would put you when adjusted for inflation.

Also consider that pattern bargaining results in everyone having similar costs over time, and with less and less competition resulting from the mergers over the past decade i count myself among those who believe that restoration is indeed possible.

 

[waveflyer]

Speedtape-
I'll answer you, but everyone knows my background and where I come from-
Where do you work? What position are you in?
Bc you're every bit as emotional in defending this TA as I am against it.

It is not about emotion, it's about the failed notion that we must whipsaw carriers against each other in order to provide domestic feed to an airline.

The only leverage any group has lies in the collective strength of the group

It's been said-
Why is unreasonable to fly -900's at mainline?
Why wouldn't this same argument be used to outsource 717's?

Out of the big three, Delta is the only one that outsources -900's.

But AA and Unical are fighting like hell to keep them from being outsourced. The fight is about large RJs. Right now Delta is limited to 255 70&76 seat RJs. They are losing money on 50 seaters and can transition some leased 50's into -900's if DALPA allows it-
I'm saying allow it, but fly it at mainline-
Regionals can keep on flying the -900's they already have, Delta mainline gets the new ones.

That's pretty reasonable.

The legacies have been so used to being forced to accept unreasonable that they've forgotten how to identify it.

As for $150/hour for 150 seat jet-

That's roughly what we all get paid- a dollar a seat for an FO. $1.50 a seat for a capt.

 

[charlie2]

You must be kidding? $150 an hour F/O for a 150 seat aircraft? How soon do you want to go out of business? Make it $200, then!

Is that in the zone of reasonableness?

Whlie flying with my 63 year old Captain last week I came to the conclusion that it would be easier for me and safer for the pax if he went and took a seat in back and let me fly it alone. It's really hard to do your job and keep correcting the other guy...therefore I am going on record and declaring that FO's should be paid more than Captains...a lot more.