Stockholm Syndrome: when legacy pilots agree that an a/c CANNOT be flown by mainline

[waveflyer]

Hook, line, and sinker- 10 years of beating you over the head has got you forgetting that every great airline started out flying airplanes smaller than a Brazilia.

So, do you want to keep the money losing 50 seaters around longer? Yes, there will be 70 more 76 seaters eventually (after all 88 717s come), and then there will be a ratio to maintain with regard to mainline vs DCI. If mainline decreases, then DCI has to decrease. Those 102 70 seat RJs out there will probably fill in for the 50 seaters on their routes that can't make money. That means they have a chance of making money for Detla, rather than losing it. Mainline growth tied in with DCI growth. It can't be one sided DCI growth anymore. That happened after BK and 9-11. This TA would prevent that. Ratios that can't be moved.

And you haven't explained how a 76 seat mainline operation would work? Who flies what, who are the FAs, who are the mechanics? How would that be funded? Maybe if we got ZERO raises, they could pay for that. Right now DCI operations are done at razor thin profit margins, with some going into BK.

Trust me, I initially didn't like a lot of this. Then, I tried to look at the whole deal, improvements in many sections, and then the duration of the deal. I wanted more pay too, and I wasn't thrilled about extra big RJs, until I heard about the ratios, the 150 less 50 seaters, and the better scope protection in INTL and Code Shares. Overall, it isn't a bad deal.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jar Jar
"RJs making money only keeps them around longer."


This^^^
Good general- that line of thinking proves at least 1 pilot who swore up and down on FI that he did get what was wrong with scope - doesn't.
I presume you just said that so I'd stop calling you sellouts??

The idea is this- if delta can't make $$ with an airplane without whipsawing 4 or 5 separate companies against each other to artificially keep labor wages low and violate the ENTIRE CONCEPT OF SENIORITY AND EXPERIENCE BASED PAY- THEN MAYBE THEY OUGHT NOT BE ALLOWED BY YOUR "UNION" (a joke of a union) to FLY THEM AT ALL.

If you need that false market and the thousands of disenfranchised pilots who will never have the leverage to improve their lot by much - then it is DALPA's RESPONSIBILITY TO STAND UP AND NOT HAVE IT.

You guys repeatedly fail in your responsibilities as a union- amazing considering the slippery slope you know scope tends to slide down
__________________
DELTA PILOTS ARE ALWAYS WILLING TO SELL OUT.

AND THIS TIME, AGAIN, FOR SO LITTLE- At least in the past, your predecessors got you paid.

 

[Jiminmem]

Hey, not all of us are blind. I'm ashamed of this TA, as are many others.

 

[waveflyer]

Jim, I know-

It's the crowd that sold out long ago- I know there are thousands of you who really do understand how far off the original intent outsourcing has gone-

Not being there on the line, I was hopeful that you were the majority by now....

Now, not so much...

 

[Jiminmem]

I do too. Thre are too many here that are jumping for joy over the TA. I thought maybe in ATL there would be some, but not in NY. I don't know, there are a number of that see thru this agreement, but far too many that are scared to say no.

 

[waveflyer]

It's been a widebody mentality there for 20-30 years now-

And I hate to hear that- scared?

I never thought DALPA was ever scared to say no- especially at a profitable time - I mean they got huge raises after 9/11- DALPA never been pussies, just too arrogant to care. Unconcerned with the domestic small stuff-
("Delta, follow the md-80", "we'll follow the 'light twin'")

But maybe the last decade has beat your group up a bit.

It really shouldn't be that big a deal- sure, get all the 76 seaters you need- but DALPA flies them.

 

[cocknbull]

I thought Stockholm syndrome was when captives began identifying with their captors.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah-
Delta spends a good amount of the last decade in BK, slashing pay, eroding scope, always threatening to scatter the whole place- the proverbial "gun to DALPAs head" as GL and bill lumberg like to say-

Now that the gun is gone, giving up more scope is something they're grateful for.

A variant of SS

 

[Speedtape]

Actually, you have your concepts and perspective wrong. Consider the following.

The argument for consideration should be the "Plantation" Concept. To keep it simple, there is a school of thought that it is a better business decision to allow outsourcing on the equipment that the majority of mainline pilots do not want to fly, and certainly would not retire on. Why is it a better business decision? Quite simply, that flying can be performed at the Regional level at much lower, overall costs than it can be performed at mainline.

Why is the outsourcing somewhat acceptable? Lower, overall costs mean a better chance of profitability for the Company. If the DALPA acceptable level of outsourcing can produce better profits, then some portion of those profits can be tapped into to improve pay and benefits on larger mainline airplanes that the majority of mainline pilots want to fly and retire on. These larger aircraft have a better potential for pay and benefit because of lower seat mile costs. Otherwise, the Company's ability to pay for large airplane pay and benefits would be mitigated if the flying was not outsourced at lower overall costs.

Certainly, there are junior pilots that do not want to buy into this concept. Those pilots, being short-sighted, would prefer to have that smaller equipment at mainline so some could fly left seat sooner. Even in the short run, because of the new pay scales, a third year DC9 F/O will be making around a $100 an hour. One could rationally speculate that higher rates on the traditional mainline airplanes have been adjusted up basically for the relief in scope.

The negotiated rates on the CRJ900 are extremely high as compared to the regional industry average. One could speculate that those high rates were negotiated high as a strategy to cause the costs to be high, so that those aircraft would be destined for the Connection carriers. Why? Loop back and re-read paragraph 2.

In the end, some mainline pilots (junior pilots) will still be upset and vote no! However, because of the negotiated pay rates on the larger, traditional mainline airplanes are so improved, the majority of the pilots will vote yes! In the long run, even the dissenters will be better off--just think beyond 3 years of seniority! The vote only requires 50% + 1 member to pass. The odds are quite good on this one!

 

[79%N1]

Why doesn't waveflyer and his cronies put his money where his mouth is and push for one list with all DCI pilots. Seems like this solves all the problems. Or, are the planes good enough for you, but NOT the pilots. Hey, no more outsourcing that way! Until you push that with your DALPA, save the speeches.

 

[RJ Bum]

Why doesn't waveflyer and his cronies put his money where his mouth is and push for one list with all DCI pilots. Seems like this solves all the problems. Or, are the planes good enough for you, but NOT the pilots. Hey, no more outsourcing that way! Until you push that with your DALPA, save the speeches.

I believe waveflyer is SWA... Will never happen, DAL guys have never shown that they can't look past their own ego. They had the perfect opportunity when DAL purchased Comair and ASA 13 yrs ago.... If it is a 777 or a C152, bottom line, if says Delta on the side, a DAL pilot should be flying it and that goes for all carriers. One list, one voice, one contract. But this is the real world, pilots will be pilots...