Standby Duty at Flex

[gutshotdraw]

Unless there is a contract issue here I don't think you are right. At least 135 anyway. The only thing I am not clear on in your example is what time the crew came off duty the flight previous.

If they came off duty at 1930 the night previous, then they are pefectly legal to accept 135 revenue legs. You have 10.5 hours of rest. That is assuming a 0600 phone call.

If they came off duty at 2030, then you are right they would be illegal for 135 revenue legs. You only have 9.5 hours rest.

I am not too familiar with 91K, but under 135 all the regulations spevify is that you have 10 hours of rest preceeding any duty time leading to a 135 flight. 135 regs do not address nor do they care what you were briefed for.

Even if they have have 10 hours off, a briefed showtime is the END of the "prospective rest" period in order to comply with the so-called "lookback" rule. I know many 135 companies violate prospective rest because their POI's give them lattitude. When an incident finally occurs where a company violated prospective rest and fatigue is listed as contributing factor, the Administrative Law Judge will not be as lenient in the interpretation.

 

[brokeflyer]

Unless there is a contract issue here I don't think you are right. At least 135 anyway. The only thing I am not clear on in your example is what time the crew came off duty the flight previous.

If they came off duty at 1930 the night previous, then they are pefectly legal to accept 135 revenue legs. You have 10.5 hours of rest. That is assuming a 0600 phone call.

If they came off duty at 2030, then you are right they would be illegal for 135 revenue legs. You only have 9.5 hours rest.

I am not too familiar with 91K, but under 135 all the regulations spevify is that you have 10 hours of rest preceeding any duty time leading to a 135 flight. 135 regs do not address nor do they care what you were briefed for.

It's not a contract thing, it's a 91k thing. 91k rest rules are what 135 "should've" been. 135 rules aren't enforced properly and since the rest requirements were fixed with 91k and are more restrictive, we have to comply with 91k rules.

kind nice after being boned for so many years by the dumb 135 rest rules.

 

[o2bflyn]

Even if they have have 10 hours off, a briefed showtime is the END of the "prospective rest" period in order to comply with the so-called "lookback" rule. I know many 135 companies violate prospective rest because their POI's give them lattitude. When an incident finally occurs where a company violated prospective rest and fatigue is listed as contributing factor, the Administrative Law Judge will not be as lenient in the interpretation.

No...the ACTUAL showtime is where the lookback starts to see if you have had legal rest. No where in the regs does it address what you are briefed for. All the FAA cares about is that you have had 10 consecutive rest hours leading up to a duty assignment.

 

[o2bflyn]

It's not a contract thing, it's a 91k thing. 91k rest rules are what 135 "should've" been. 135 rules aren't enforced properly and since the rest requirements were fixed with 91k and are more restrictive, we have to comply with 91k rules.

kind nice after being boned for so many years by the dumb 135 rest rules.

Ah ha....that explains it. I thought they were saying it was a 135 rest reg issue.....I am not that familiar with 91K. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[o2bflyn]

This is for all the non-NJA pilots (since I know their rules) would you help me out?
You all answer a post with a statement "my company" then proceed to talk about answering or not answering the phone. That's all fine since your passing your saying what you'd do or not do. I ask these questions to ya: why don't you post what company you work for? If you won't list your company then do you have a contract that explains your rest policy? What would you do if you answer the phone and say 'yes' to working, but your fellow crew member doesn't? If you answer the phone at 9.5 hrs. of rest and it's the company; would you tell them to reset your rest period since they interrupted your rest period?
I'd like to hear not for sake of argument, but I am truly curious.

1. I think we should leave company names out of it just for politics sake. No contract though (135 operator)

2.I say yes and other guy says no.....we don't fly.

3. Tell company to reset rest. Not really sure how the reg reads, but my personal answer is no I would not tell them to reset my rest. not for one phone call, but if it turns into a conversation or several phone calls then yes.

 

[brokeflyer]

Ah ha....that explains it. I thought they were saying it was a 135 rest reg issue.....I am not that familiar with 91K. Sorry for the confusion.

If you dive into 135 it is basicly the same thing. You are supposed to be either ON duty or OFF duty. Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring is considered ON duty because you able to be called as opposed to be OFF anbd they can't call you.

But it's written poorly and the FAA don't enforce it because all the managers cry about it.

So they fixed it with 91k, which says you have to be told what time to report for your next duty period BEFORE you go off for the night. And it cannot be changed.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner

 

[BeeDubya]

So they fixed it with 91k, which says you have to be told what time to report for your next duty period BEFORE you go off for the night. And it cannot be changed.

From 91.1057 (in Subpart K):


"Reserve status means that status in which a flight crewmember, by arrangement with the program manager: Holds himself or herself fit to fly to the extent that this is within the control of the flight crewmember; remains within a reasonable response time of the aircraft as agreed between the flight crewmember and the program manager; and maintains a ready means whereby the flight crewmember may be contacted by the program manager. Reserve status is not part of any duty period or rest period.

Rest period means a period of time required pursuant to this subpart that is free of all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember or flight attendant cannot be required to receive contact from the program manager. A rest period does not include any time during which the program manager imposes on a flight crewmember or flight attendant any duty or restraint, including any actual work or present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.
Standby means that portion of a duty period during which a flight crewmember is subject to the control of the program manager and holds himself or herself in a condition of readiness to undertake a flight. Standby is not part of any rest period."

These are the applicable definitions. What seems to be relevant is whether or not the pilot is required (by imposition by the program manager) to be available for actual work or present responsibility for work, shoudl the occasion arise. It is from these definitions that we get the "prospective rest" concept.

However, I do not read these to prohibit a change in duty start time, as long as the minimum rest requirements are met and that the change is voluntary: not imposed by the program manager. In other words, if the operator requires the pilot to answer the phone and accept a change in duty assignment, then it is not voluntary and not compliant with the 91.1057 requirements, because the pilot was responsible for work if the occasion arose. If there is no expectation for availablity, then I believe changes to the brief (acceptable to the crew and after compliant rest) would be compliant with 91.1057.

By interpretive letter, any restraint placed on the crewmember (such as a requirement to answer the phone) cannot be considered a "Rest Period."

 

[o2bflyn]

Gutshot....I see where what you are saying applies to 91K, but It does not apply to 135. After 10 hours of rest, where you are not responsible for any work related duties, you are back "on-call" and available for flight duty. Regardless of when you briefed for the next day. That being said, if you were told you had a 1400 show and you prepared your sleep for that and then the call at 0800 for a trip. I can see where you can say you are unfit to fly due to fatigue because you had stayed up late in preparation for your late show, but they are legal to call and you are legal to accept.


BeeDub....thanks for posting the reg. I agree with what you are saying. I have never worked for a company that actually require you to answer your phone during rest periods. I am in no way stating that you should answer your phone during a rest period, but I am saying that if you are beyond your 10 hours of rest and are "on call" then you should answer. I see that there can be arguements either way, but those are my personal feelings on the issue.

 

[frac pilot]

Don't cloud the issue - your either in rest or out of rest.

When your in rest, you have no obligation to the company...phone, pager, horn, etc.

Companies are allowed one contact during a rest period without considering it an interuption. Answer, don't answer - it's up to you.

Regardless of what your company assigns (hotel duty, airport standby, flight asignment, etc.) it can't be considered rest.

You have to have 10 hrs, uninterupted rest within a 24 hr period.

Yes, the company can shorten or lengthen any rest period, as long as the above criteria is met. Obviously, 2-way communication is required to do either. Hence, the original question...Do I have to answer the phone?

Answer it, don't answer it - it's up to you.