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Spinning and 172s

minitour

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Due to a recent "event" with a student while doing power on stalls, I have decided that my students need at the very least spin entry and recovery training.

Just wondering how the 172 spin characteristics differ from the 152. I know the 152 wraps up pretty tight, but it also comes out very easily...how bout the 72?

Opinions/thoughts/techniques on how to conduct the spin entry/recovery training? I'm pretty sure that at least one of my students has no desire to ever spin, but...the idea of using rudder during stalls (specifically power on) seems to evade a few of them. The others, I'm not sure...and I'd rather I teach them how to do it properly rather than go out and do it on my watch and end up a smokin' hole.

-mini
 

Flechas

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The 172 is wway more stable than the 152 and doesn't like to spin, you have to help it.

As far as your students not using rudder/using ailerons during stalls, first show them on paper what's wrong with doing that (Critical AOA and all that good stuff). Then tell them to do a power on stall, and to recover using only aileron. They will see the plane going into a spin to the left when they apply right aileron. Then tell them to do the sameusing only rudder (block the aileron ise if needed). This normally worked pretty good for me and my students.

If you are going to show spins to a student for the first time, make sure you do it gradually. First power off, half a turn, then a whole turn. Then go into it power off over the top, then power on.....you get the idea.

Good luck!
 

minitour

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Flechas said:
As far as your students not using rudder/using ailerons during stalls, first show them on paper what's wrong with doing that (Critical AOA and all that good stuff).
That's the frustrating part. Every time, we go over that...using airplane models, drawings, etc...still there's not enough right rudder...

I don't want to scare anyone, but I do want them to realize "oh...that's what he's talking about all the time when he says I'm not using enough right rudder."

Thanks for the tips man...I'll put it to use.

-mini
 

NW_Pilot

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Brings back memories when I was a private student, what my instructor did was let me experiment a lot with the rudder controls so I would not be shy with them, I learned what it felt like to depress the left and right rudders to full deflection and felt the airplanes reaction. That seemed to help me with my power on stalls and seemed to help a lot of his students get over what he called rudder fear!



Another thing that helped me keep the aileron straight and not give to much back pressure was a pencil between the yoke and fingers try not to break pencil also kelps remove death grip landings & trim usage. “Note Make Student Buy Pencils”





Steven Rhine
CP-ASEL-IA
CFI, Multi, ATP Student
N7676U 1976 C-150M
 

HMR

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(Cue Barbara Streisand singing "Memories")

Spins in the 172 take some effort. The plane usually recovers the minute you change anything. I never had someone enter a spin on "accident" in the 172. Do you ever do "falling leaf" stalls with your students? Power off, stall the plane and have the student balance the plane using only rudders while holding the yolk all the way aft. No ailerons allowed. If done properly the plane gently rocks back and forth and descends like a falling leaf while stalled. This always worked well for me when teaching proper use of rudder during stalls.
 

nosehair

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Chandelles to the right - keep the ball centered, keep the bank constant.
 

Kenny

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Mini,

It's been a while since I had to teach stalls and how to do them properly but after 2300 as an Instructor, I'd like to think I at least got that right. I used to do checkrides and there were two things that I found made a big difference.

Firstly a lot of students were under the impression that they had to pitch for the heavens in order to get the AC to stall "properly". What I used to tell them was to set a pitch attitude that would induce a stall, progressively increase the back pressure to keep the attitude and let the stall "come to them" rather than chasing it. Once they saw that the harder they pitched up the more aggressive the stall was, it generally cured them of that.

The other thing that used to make a difference was telling them to look straight ahead and not inside whilst pitching for the stall. I know it sounds obvious but so many students look inside at the inclinometer, trying to keep that ball centered that they miss the most obvious cue that one wing has started stalling, the position of the nose relative to a visual reference point.

I did my PPL in the UK and not only did I get a verbal tongue lashing if I even twitched on the ailerons but incipient stalls and spin recoveries were required onmy checkride. I really think they should be here aswell.

Good luck with everything.
 

Sig

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My $.02--

The 172 I'd spin got weird with an aft CG (read: the student was the same size as me and a 36" inseam). The mode was WAY different than the power-on...and on...and on spins to the left- it was actually... sluggish? I have no idea why; ask Bill Kirshner. It would initially 'snap' (you know what I mean) inverted, but sometimes stay there with a -2 or -3 nose attitude and just gently fall into a spin where the dang thing was more yaw than roll. Move either seat forward, the nose dropped, and we're in a more rolling mode like a 152. Of course, the instant you took out a millimeter of back pressure or killed the yaw with rudder (or even power, actually) the spin was over at any stage. Clyde made a pretty nifty machine.

I only did it a few times with my bestest students.
 

Vector4fun

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Mini, I always liked the "falling leaf" thing HMR mentioned. I'd do it with them 3-4 times descending from 5000 down to 2000 if that's what it took. And like Kenny said, when doing the departure stall, make them point the nose at a cloud, and task them with keeping it there, not letting it slide left or right a bit. If you have to, make them hold the center of the yoke, so it's difficult to use aileron. The Skyhawk is hard to spin with Utility loading. (forward cg) Spins are great, but I'd rather do them in a Citabria or some such.
 

BushwickBill

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minitour said:
Due to a recent "event" with a student while doing power on stalls, I have decided that my students need at the very least spin entry and recovery training.

Just wondering how the 172 spin characteristics differ from the 152. I know the 152 wraps up pretty tight, but it also comes out very easily...how bout the 72?

Opinions/thoughts/techniques on how to conduct the spin entry/recovery training? I'm pretty sure that at least one of my students has no desire to ever spin, but...the idea of using rudder during stalls (specifically power on) seems to evade a few of them. The others, I'm not sure...and I'd rather I teach them how to do it properly rather than go out and do it on my watch and end up a smokin' hole.

-mini
Keep in mind spins aint too good for the gyros. So dont take out your schools best IFR 172 and spin it. I hate spinning the 172 1/2 the time it wont go into it and you have to hold full cross controls throughout the spin to keep it going. Its not like a Zlin or a real aerobatic plane. I would show them the "falling leaf" deal. Thats my favorite one for students that are afraid of stalls because it isn't too scary and the ones who use ailerons during a stall. It cures them pretty quick.
 

Sig

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BushwickBill said:
Keep in mind spins aint too good for the gyros. So dont take out your schools best IFR 172 and spin it. I hate spinning the 172 1/2 the time it wont go into it and you have to hold full cross controls throughout the spin to keep it going. Its not like a Zlin or a real aerobatic plane. I would show them the "falling leaf" deal. Thats my favorite one for students that are afraid of stalls because it isn't too scary and the ones who use ailerons during a stall. It cures them pretty quick.
Dang right on the gyros. The only one I'd spin was the one I rec'd spin training in for my CFI.

As far as the falling leaf stall, I missed it in the post! Great tool for teaching.

/rant
 

Workin'Stiff

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I hear ya there on they gyros... We used the oldest 152 in the fleet. This thing was kinda scary because everyone used it for spins. Lets just say that it always got the most detailed preflight out of any aircraft at the flight school...
 

wmuflyguy

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The "falling leaf" method worked great on my students too.
 

RichardRambone

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Spins were a blast. We used the shatty 152 we had and yes it too got a thourogh preflight. We probably did 20 of em for my CFI and were having so much fun we got lost. My CFI was pretty embarrased.
 

NoPax

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Anybody seen the video of a bird-dog O-2 spinning??? It shows the vertical stabilizer flexing quite a bit on recovery. I'll try to find it.

Be careful out there guys & girls, spinning a cessna 152/172 just isn't good for the airframe, nevermind the gyros. You can fly without gyros.

It took me to go to a good aerobatic school to learn to do it right, in the right equipment.

If its hard to get in, its harder to get out, if you let it fully develop.
 

nosehair

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NoPax said:
If its hard to get in, its harder to get out, if you let it fully develop.
...hmmm, would you care to expand on this??
 

NoPax

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nopax said:
If its hard to get in, its harder to get out, if you let it fully develop.
sorry, that was a little vague

It wasn't until I went to an aerobatic school, that I saw a fully developed spin. I wasn't doing fully-developed spins in a 172/152 prior - merely entry, then fighting with the design of the airplane (that didn't want it to spin). This is like the previous poster that said his would hang inverted for a little bit prior to spinning.

The recovery for the aerobatic airplane I flew there was to pull back on the stick, and apply full opposite rudder, and wait...maybe for 3 more turns or so. Definately unnerving.

Look into the FAR for the requirements that have to be demonstrated by each category of aircraft - ie Normal, Utility, Aerobatic - to recover from a spin. If memory serves me, I think that Normal and Utility airplanes are not required to demonstrate recovery from a fully developed, ie more than 6 turn spin. Spins may become unrecoverable.

The usual recovery quoted by every CFI, including myself, was to push the stick/yoke forward - this may increase the velocity of rotation, as it reduces angle of attack, before showing signs of recovery.

Definately recommend reading 'Anatomy of a Spin', at the very least. Its a small handbook/textbook, that goes into great depth about spins, in different airplanes, and spin recovery techniques. Great ground training reference.

I recommend against spinning a Cessna 172 to train students. You can do spins, but its not considered part of training towards a certificate per FAR, but you have to wear parachutes, and do them in a suitable area, if you choose to spin student pilots.

Seek training from a professional first, before conducting aerobatic training.

Even then, I'd send the students to an aerobatic instructor.
 

minitour

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NoPax said:
Be careful out there guys & girls, spinning a cessna 152/172 just isn't good for the airframe...

Not saying you're wrong, because I just don't know...but do you have a reference for this?

-mini
 

erj-145mech

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It won't hurt the structure if the accelleration wasn't exceeded, but the gyros take a hell of a beating. I wouldn't allow my 150 to be spun when it was on leaseback because I got tired of having to repair the DG because it had excessive precession. The flight school used a non gyro equipped Aeronca Champ to teach spins to the CFI students.
 

nosehair

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NoPax said:
You can do spins, but its not considered part of training towards a certificate per FAR, but you have to wear parachutes,
...actually, it is training for a certificate. Stall/spin awareness training can, and should, include spins, spin entry, and spin recovery. The FAA does not hold the idea that instructor training is the only time you can do spins without a parachute. The stall/spin training required of a private pilot can include actual spins.
I agree with you that prolonged spins (more than 3 turns) are not necessary, and should be done in aerobatic training, but a simple 1 or 2 turn entry and recovery is very benificial for the student and is not a danger.


 
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