Spinning and 172s

[nosehair]

If its hard to get in, its harder to get out, if you let it fully develop.

...hmmm, would you care to expand on this??
​

 

[NoPax]

If its hard to get in, its harder to get out, if you let it fully develop.

sorry, that was a little vague

It wasn't until I went to an aerobatic school, that I saw a fully developed spin. I wasn't doing fully-developed spins in a 172/152 prior - merely entry, then fighting with the design of the airplane (that didn't want it to spin). This is like the previous poster that said his would hang inverted for a little bit prior to spinning.

The recovery for the aerobatic airplane I flew there was to pull back on the stick, and apply full opposite rudder, and wait...maybe for 3 more turns or so. Definately unnerving.

Look into the FAR for the requirements that have to be demonstrated by each category of aircraft - ie Normal, Utility, Aerobatic - to recover from a spin. If memory serves me, I think that Normal and Utility airplanes are not required to demonstrate recovery from a fully developed, ie more than 6 turn spin. Spins may become unrecoverable.

The usual recovery quoted by every CFI, including myself, was to push the stick/yoke forward - this may increase the velocity of rotation, as it reduces angle of attack, before showing signs of recovery.

Definately recommend reading 'Anatomy of a Spin', at the very least. Its a small handbook/textbook, that goes into great depth about spins, in different airplanes, and spin recovery techniques. Great ground training reference.

I recommend against spinning a Cessna 172 to train students. You can do spins, but its not considered part of training towards a certificate per FAR, but you have to wear parachutes, and do them in a suitable area, if you choose to spin student pilots.

Seek training from a professional first, before conducting aerobatic training.

Even then, I'd send the students to an aerobatic instructor.

 

[minitour]

Be careful out there guys & girls, spinning a cessna 152/172 just isn't good for the airframe...

Not saying you're wrong, because I just don't know...but do you have a reference for this?

-mini

 

[erj-145mech]

It won't hurt the structure if the accelleration wasn't exceeded, but the gyros take a hell of a beating. I wouldn't allow my 150 to be spun when it was on leaseback because I got tired of having to repair the DG because it had excessive precession. The flight school used a non gyro equipped Aeronca Champ to teach spins to the CFI students.

 

[nosehair]

You can do spins, but its not considered part of training towards a certificate per FAR, but you have to wear parachutes,

...actually, it is training for a certificate. Stall/spin awareness training can, and should, include spins, spin entry, and spin recovery. The FAA does not hold the idea that instructor training is the only time you can do spins without a parachute. The stall/spin training required of a private pilot can include actual spins.
I agree with you that prolonged spins (more than 3 turns) are not necessary, and should be done in aerobatic training, but a simple 1 or 2 turn entry and recovery is very benificial for the student and is not a danger.


​

 

[hindsight2020]

Agree with erj-145mech, it's not the spin that bends you, it's the recovery.

Take a look at the airspeed indicator while you're spinning that baby, you ain't going nowhere, so to speak. Once you break out of the spin, you're still slow enough that if you try to level off abruptly, you'll exceed critical AOA (secondary stall of sorts) waayyyy before you bend anything. Of course, it is to be noted that as soon as you break off the spin you'll gain airspeed real fast, so the recovery is not to be unnecessarily delayed. I consider the spiral to be a more structurally compromising scenario than the spin, everything else being equal of course (including the complacent and/or inexperiened pilot).

In essence the gyros are taking a hit. The AI kinda stares at you, all leaning and swinging as if to ever-so-slightly say.. "...i'm airsick.."

 

[NoPax]

Alright guys, I really gotta find that video of the bird-dog I'm talking about. You'll see. Maybe the recovery wasn't right, or something, but its alarming.

There is also a picture, of a lot of the Shorts (Embraer) Tucano the RAF have, that shows them all lined up in a row, and not one of their vertical stabilizers is aligned with another - probably a design flaw in that airplane.

Spins used to be a requirement for Private pilot training however, it was taken out of the regs. Maybe too many accidents, who knows.

One or two turns is ok, if entered and recovered from correctly. A seasoned instructor I flew with showed me a 'spin' one time that was actually a snaproll. He said he couldn't get it to spin unless he stalled the airplane abruptly (10-20 knots above Vs), and applied full rudder (in a 172). Just wonder how many other instructors he had taught over the years that are now teaching that to their students.

 

[Dumbluck]

If you have acess to a katana, they make great little spin trainers. Docile in the beginning, but if it goes past 3-5 turns the rotation increases dramatically, and positive control input is required to recover. Cessna's are great to start with but they fail to teach the proper recovery techniques. I don't consider "letting go" a proper recover. Just my opinion.

 

[NoPax]

If you have acess to a katana, they make great little spin trainers. Docile in the beginning, but if it goes past 3-5 turns the rotation increases dramatically, and positive control input is required to recover. Cessna's are great to start with but they fail to teach the proper recovery techniques. I don't consider "letting go" a proper recover. Just my opinion.

Letting go isn't a recovery, when you're in a fully developed spin.

I'd doubt that the Katana has been certified to recover from a >3 turn spin. Congratulations - your a test pilot. Now don't ever do that again.

 

[Dumbluck]

okay, I'll never spin a Katana again. How about a Trauma-hawk?

 

[HMR]

Seek training from a professional first, before conducting aerobatic training.

Even then, I'd send the students to an aerobatic instructor.

Huh?

NoPax- You were a CFI? Did you ever teach spins? I'm trying to make sense of your posts.

 

[NoPax]

Huh?

NoPax- You were a CFI? Did you ever teach spins? I'm trying to make sense of your posts.

I began flight-training in the UK with the RAF, then onto a civilian flight-school.

After I got my FAA Commercial SE, I did aerobatic training and got my CFI Spin endorsement. Then I finished up my CFI & CFII at the flightschool I did all my other certificates at. When I did my CFI checkout with the seasoned instructor I told you about, he was the one that snap-rolled the 172 when demonstrating a 'spin'. A snap-roll is a spin of sorts, but in the flight-path of the airplane. The accelerative loads induced in entry and recovery from a snap are far greater than in a properly entered spin.

The aerobatic school looked down upon the usual spin training given to most CFI applicants ie one or two turn over-the-top spin in a Cessna 152. When you do a fully developed spin in an aerobatic airplane, the experience is entirely different, and worth the $300-500 for a couple of flights.

You learn all about the stall, stall recovery, the spin, spin phases, design considerations, neutral inertia, fuselage loaded, wing loaded, configuration effects, tail design, spins in twins, inverted spins, flat spins, loss of control.

When I taught spins, I did the ground portion. I also sent my students home with my copy of, 'Anatomy of a Spin' by John Lowery (covers everything above and then some). We'd go over it in class, then we would do spins in a 150 (CFI applicants only). I would also recommend further spins & aerobatics at the aerobatic flight school, and with the instructor I had there.

 

[Dumbluck]

NoPax, excellent advice. But tell the acro instructors to leave their ego's at the door. Every A/C has different spin characteristics. What the point of learning spin recovery in Pitts, or an Extra unless your going to continue to fly them. Learn spin recovery in the plane your most likely to do a spin in, most instructors spend their time in Cessna's and Cherokee's, makes more sense and shouldn't be looked down on. If you want to oh and ahh at acrobatic aircraft performance by all means go ahead. But so far, the time I've got in acrobatic airplanes does very little for me in transport catagory aircraft. That said, I would love to fly those little suckers again.

 

[HMR]

I began flight-training in the UK with the RAF, then onto a civilian flight-school.

After I got my FAA Commercial SE, I did aerobatic training and got my CFI Spin endorsement. Then I finished up my CFI & CFII at the flightschool I did all my other certificates at. When I did my CFI checkout with the seasoned instructor I told you about, he was the one that snap-rolled the 172 when demonstrating a 'spin'. A snap-roll is a spin of sorts, but in the flight-path of the airplane. The accelerative loads induced in entry and recovery from a snap are far greater than in a properly entered spin.

The aerobatic school looked down upon the usual spin training given to most CFI applicants ie one or two turn over-the-top spin in a Cessna 152. When you do a fully developed spin in an aerobatic airplane, the experience is entirely different, and worth the $300-500 for a couple of flights.

You learn all about the stall, stall recovery, the spin, spin phases, design considerations, neutral inertia, fuselage loaded, wing loaded, configuration effects, tail design, spins in twins, inverted spins, flat spins, loss of control.

When I taught spins, I did the ground portion. I also sent my students home with my copy of, 'Anatomy of a Spin' by John Lowery (covers everything above and then some). We'd go over it in class, then we would do spins in a 150 (CFI applicants only). I would also recommend further spins & aerobatics at the aerobatic flight school, and with the instructor I had there.

Gee, thanks for the spin explanation.

I chose to do my spin and aerobatic training with Rich Stowell. I don't know if he meets your high standards but you can check his credentials here.

Sorry, that your "seasoned" instructor didn't know how to spin a 172. Fortunately, most every 250hr. CFI I've met can tell the difference between a snap roll and a spin.

I agree with you on one point: spinning an aerobatic airplane is a different experience than spinning a 152. I never had any students soloing in a Pitts or an Extra 300 so I "limited" their spin training to the Cessnas.

 

[NoPax]

The aerobatic flight school I went to, had a run in with him for using the term Emergency Maneuvers Training - looks like its a registered trademark now.

He's a great aerobatic instructor, and well worth the investment.

Not slinging mud at him by anymeans, but he is a NAFI Master CFI, and has never soloed one student, to my knowledge.