Southwest Upgrade

[JetFumes]

So is it really something like 19 years for the new guys?

 

[obadie]

Jetfumes, I will refrain from taking the full hook. Im sure you know the only constant in this industry is change. It might be 10 years today and 20 years tomorrow and 5 years next month. The great advantage of working at SWA is that the FO's make more than most other airline Captains. Good luck at Jetblue..Maybe someday you will be flying a red belly money maker.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Jetfumes

I cannot answer this question with much certainty. Our seniority projector on our union website only reflects our position so we can't really look at new or future hires.

Additionally, I agree with the poster above that a lot of the forecasting is very speculative. I think I can say with a fair amount of certainty that it's more than six but less that 20.

Is it a great place to work as an fo? Well, is there any place that's great to work as an fo? The jobs is what you make it. We all came here for the quick upgrade and Age 60 and Gary's tightness with his purse strings have really cramped our style.

Furthermore, his desire to grow the airline through acquisition, using 1.4 billion dollars that he's been telling us he didn't have (for the last five years) isn't making for a lot of happiness on the fo front as well.

When the dust settles I hope it will be as they've been telling us it will be, the land of milk and honey. We'll grow like gangbusters and everyone will be happy. Unfortunately, I was born at night, just not last night.

 

[spciii]

Well the guys at the Training Center told me during new hire class I'd be back for CA upgrade in about 5-6 years. That was in late 2007 so I'm sure my upgrade is right around the corner. Those guys are good sh@$s.

 

[JetFumes]

I know that the airtran deal needs to be factored in. Just trying to get a general idea even though there are variables that can't be predicted.

 

[LearLove]

SWA, Airtran and JB all have hired lots of guys in the past 10 years that were in their mid/late 20's and 30's. It needs to be considered figuring that when the boomers retire these guys (hired in the last 10 years) will be in the former boomers seats for 20 to 30 more years.

 

[On Your Six]

As GUP has stated before, there are not a lot of scheduled retirements over the next ten years, especially compared to the Legacies. I think he said some upcoming years have maybe 150 scheduled retirements at SWA, compared to 500-600 a year at most Majors. Add in a fairly young Airtran group, and so far vague rumors about possible International expansion that is a total change from their current successful business plan(Europe? Risky!) and I would think a SWA upgrade to a junior SWA or Airtran guy after the SLI is complete could be 15-16 years. Unfortunately that means a lot of future holidays away from home. Good luck!


OYS

 

[PapaWoody]

As GUP has stated before, there are not a lot of scheduled retirements over the next ten years, especially compared to the Legacies. I think he said some upcoming years have maybe 150 scheduled retirements at SWA, compared to 500-600 a year at most Majors. Add in a fairly young Airtran group, and so far vague rumors about possible International expansion that is a total change from their current successful business plan(Europe? Risky!) and I would think a SWA upgrade to a junior SWA or Airtran guy after the SLI is complete could be 13-14 years. Unfortunately that means a lot of future holidays away from home. Good luck!


OYS

As a junior Delta guy, when you're upgrade is about 18 years away at least, I would think that you would be a little jealous about the upgrades at SWA. Of course, that might explain your fascination with all things Southwest. Jealousy. I'm just sayin'.

PapaWoody

 

[On Your Six]

As a junior Delta guy, when you're upgrade is about 18 years away at least, I would think that you would be a little jealous about the upgrades at SWA. Of course, that might explain your fascination with all things Southwest. Jealousy. I'm just sayin'.

PapaWoody

No, we have 2000 guys scheduled to go at 65 (they all won't stay that long, the former NWA guys still have full pensions) within the next 5 years, and 4000 total within the next 10 years. Southwest and Airtran will have 2 fleet types, compared to 9 at Delta. So, when a top SWA guy leaves, 4 people move up a seat (717 Capt goes to 737 Capt, 737 FO goes to 717 Capt, 717 FO moves up to higher paying 737 FO, and SWA has to hire into the 717 FO seat). Think what happens when a 744 or 777 Capt leaves Delta? The A330 or 764 Capt moves up to whale or 777 Capt, all the way down to newhire on the MD88. Unbelievable movement, and some years coming up here there are 800 or so scheduled retirements, in one year! How am I doing? Duh, WINNING! (thanks Charlie Sheen!).

Honestly, the movement will be slower at SWA compared to the Legacies. And, I am a lot happier now, not jealous. Good luck with that SLI.


OYS

 

[redflyer65]

What everyone has to realize with upgrades is that when (not if) Southwest goes FULL international with it's first wide body, the upgrades will drop to 5-7 years for everyone on the current list. Including all the Airtran guys.

It's the equivelant of looking at Delta in the early days before they went to Europe. The growth potential is off the map.

Southwest will already have 3200+ flights a day feeding a new international network. It's the best domestic to international feed in the nation, easily.

I think all the junior SW/AAI guys are in for a wild ride.

 

[27 driver]

What everyone has to realize with upgrades is that when (not if) Southwest goes FULL international with it's first wide body, the upgrades will drop to 5-7 years for everyone on the current list. Including all the Airtran guys.

It's the equivelant of looking at Delta in the early days before they went to Europe. The growth potential is off the map.

Southwest will already have 3200+ flights a day feeding a new international network. It's the best domestic to international feed in the nation, easily.

I think all the junior SW/AAI guys are in for a wild ride.

I hope you are right Red but IMHO the days of explosive growth are over. I have no doubt that LUV will grow but it will be more conservative and calculated.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

What everyone has to realize with upgrades is that when (not if) Southwest goes FULL international with it's first wide body, the upgrades will drop to 5-7 years for everyone on the current list. Including all the Airtran guys.

It's the equivelant of looking at Delta in the early days before they went to Europe. The growth potential is off the map.

Southwest will already have 3200+ flights a day feeding a new international network. It's the best domestic to international feed in the nation, easily.

I think all the junior SW/AAI guys are in for a wild ride.

Throttle back clown.....you skygods can't even find Nassau yet on your schedule. Gary will probably merge/acquire somebody to do that flying...

You are lucky the AAI people are bringing some good experience to your airline because we all forget, you just turned on VNAV and autothrottles so yeah sure, the feds will probably hand over the keys to ETOPS because Gary asked them to.

 

[SWA/CA]

Its a 5 year upgrade at Southwest Airlines, always has been always will be

 

[On Your Six]

What everyone has to realize with upgrades is that when (not if) Southwest goes FULL international with it's first wide body, the upgrades will drop to 5-7 years for everyone on the current list. Including all the Airtran guys.

It's the equivelant of looking at Delta in the early days before they went to Europe. The growth potential is off the map.

Southwest will already have 3200+ flights a day feeding a new international network. It's the best domestic to international feed in the nation, easily.

I think all the junior SW/AAI guys are in for a wild ride.

My coffee jus shot out of my nose! Southwest to Europe? If you start, then
Ryanair and Easyjet will start, and that alone could sink that idea. It took you guys 30 years to introduce VNAV and autothrottles. The Airtran guys do have some international experience, but your management team has none, and you have no alliance partners that could assist you with gates, slots, and knowledge about each country. You keep touting Hawaii service too, and that will be a challenge, without ETOPS approval to go all the way. Yes, Sun Country goes to Europe with 738s, but they stop at Gander. And you're getting widebodies too? Which one? Your gameplan sounds as erratic as SWAPA's want list on the SLI.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Throttle back clown.....you skygods can't even find Nassau yet on your schedule. Gary will probably merge/acquire somebody to do that flying...

You are lucky the AAI people are bringing some good experience to your airline because we all forget, you just turned on VNAV and autothrottles so yeah sure, the feds will probably hand over the keys to ETOPS because Gary asked them to.

Wait, GK just placed a huge order with Papa John's.....


OYS

 

[hockeypilot44]

No, we have 2000 guys scheduled to go at 65 (they all won't stay that long, the former NWA guys still have full pensions) within the next 5 years, and 4000 total within the next 10 years. Southwest and Airtran will have 2 fleet types, compared to 9 at Delta. So, when a top SWA guy leaves, 4 people move up a seat (717 Capt goes to 737 Capt, 737 FO goes to 717 Capt, 717 FO moves up to higher paying 737 FO, and SWA has to hire into the 717 FO seat). Think what happens when a 744 or 777 Capt leaves Delta? The A330 or 764 Capt moves up to whale or 777 Capt, all the way down to newhire on the MD88. Unbelievable movement, and some years coming up here there are 800 or so scheduled retirements, in one year! How am I doing? Duh, WINNING! (thanks Charlie Sheen!).

Honestly, the movement will be slower at SWA compared to the Legacies. And, I am a lot happier now, not jealous. Good luck with that SLI.


OYS

You are being very optimistic with Delta. Very few pilots are retiring before they absolutely have to. The big retirements at Delta happen between 2020 and 2030. On the crystal ball, I'm showing hitting the 50 percent mark in 2024 (this assumes the list stays the same size which it won't, it is a shrinking list). I was hired in 2008 so that's a 16 year upgrade. I wouldn't call that a fantastic career or much better than a Southwest pilot.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Hockeypilot44

It's obvious the goal of OYS is not to portray a factual picture. It's what his goal appears on every Southwest thread he hijacks. To try and make Southwest look as bad as possible and Deltas as great as possible. Personally, I like both carriers but I work for one of them so I like them more. (skin in the game) I'm sure it's the same for him since he works for Delta.

Different game plans, different long term strategies. If talking about VNAV and ATS is all he's got then just let him keep ranting.

We also don't have a lick of experience in bankruptcy and furlough. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[jonjuan]

You are being very optimistic with Delta. Very few pilots are retiring before they absolutely have to.

Age doesn't take affect for 2 years so how can you say very few pilots are retiring before they have to? You won't know this for about 4 years when 200 to 300 are facing mandatory retirement.

 

[redflyer65]

You are being very optimistic with Delta. Very few pilots are retiring before they absolutely have to. The big retirements at Delta happen between 2020 and 2030. On the crystal ball, I'm showing hitting the 50 percent mark in 2024 (this assumes the list stays the same size which it won't, it is a shrinking list). I was hired in 2008 so that's a 16 year upgrade. I wouldn't call that a fantastic career or much better than a Southwest pilot.

Nice factual post.

 

[boeing717]

My coffee jus shot out of my nose! Southwest to Europe? If you start, then
Ryanair and Easyjet will start, and that alone could sink that idea. It took you guys 30 years to introduce VNAV and autothrottles. The Airtran guys do have some international experience, but your management team has none, and you have no alliance partners that could assist you with gates, slots, and knowledge about each country. You keep touting Hawaii service too, and that will be a challenge, without ETOPS approval to go all the way. Yes, Sun Country goes to Europe with 738s, but they stop at Gander. And you're getting widebodies too? Which one? Your gameplan sounds as erratic as SWAPA's want list on the SLI.


OYS

In all fairness it is true Airtran flies to Nassau. However, is that really a big deal? You can see it from the shore on a good day. Besides we might fly international but the company doesn't pay it as international because they do not consider it international. Lets be real and tell it like it is.

 

[Music]

In all fairness it is true Airtran flies to Nassau. However, is that really a big deal? You can see it from the shore on a good day. Besides we might fly international but the company doesn't pay it as international because they do not consider it international. Lets be real and tell it like it is.

Tell it like it is? C'mon are you really serious? Even the haters know that AirTran flies to AUA, MBJ, PUJ, CUN, and soon BDA. All in addition to NAS. Not to mention Supplemental charter ops to other international cities And while we only get the international override for AUA, PUJ, MBJ, and BDA, neither do most legacy carriers get it either. If you're gonna bag on the operation at least be accurate.

 

[boeing717]

Tell it like it is? C'mon are you really serious? Even the haters know that AirTran flies to AUA, MBJ, PUJ, CUN, and soon BDA. All in addition to NAS. Not to mention Supplemental charter ops to other international cities And while we only get the international override for AUA, PUJ, MBJ, and BDA, neither do most legacy carriers get it either. If you're gonna bag on the operation at least be accurate.

Good point. However, lets again be fair. If Airtran can do don't you think SWA can do it? I really do not know why we respond to this type of crap. Face it, they are better than us in many ways and that is why we are being bought.

 

[texman]

International ops can be complex overall, But half of the list a SWA has been there done that. Not a big deal. I just want to drink some good beer. So if anybody can tell me what countries have the best brew, that can be a lesson of it's own.LOL

 

[Music]

If Airtran can do don't you think SWA can do it?

Yep. Never said they couldn't. I was just setting the record straight regarding AirTran's international ops.

 

[dicko]

International ops can be complex overall, But half of the list a SWA has been there done that. Not a big deal. I just want to drink some good beer. So if anybody can tell me what countries have the best brew, that can be a lesson of it's own.LOL

Punta Cana overnight. All inclusive resort with swim up bar. Free everything

 

[boeing717]

Yep. Never said they couldn't. I was just setting the record straight regarding AirTran's international ops.

I hope we have more than that to argue about.

 

[jonjuan]

You are being very optimistic with Delta. Very few pilots are retiring before they absolutely have to. The big retirements at Delta happen between 2020 and 2030. On the crystal ball, I'm showing hitting the 50 percent mark in 2024 (this assumes the list stays the same size which it won't, it is a shrinking list). I was hired in 2008 so that's a 16 year upgrade. I wouldn't call that a fantastic career or much better than a Southwest pilot.

I thought dal was hiring and recalling furloughees. Of so, how can the list be shrinking? Also, I think I saw a post here which showed if hired in 2012, 1/2 the list would hit 65 in 2022 or 11 years at DAL and 2028 or 17 years at wn (not including the airtran guys which would extend this date a year or two). So if these facts are correct, a guy getting on at dal next year (assuming growth stasis) would be at 50% in 10 years and the same wn guy (again assuming growth stasis) hired in 2012 would hit 50% in 2028 or 16 years.
16 years versus 10 is a big delta (payrates are another story).
I'd love to be corrected if anyone has more accurate facts.

 

[Quimby]

No, we have 2000 guys scheduled to go at 65 (they all won't stay that long, the former NWA guys still have full pensions) within the next 5 years, and 4000 total within the next 10 years. Southwest and Airtran will have 2 fleet types, compared to 9 at Delta. So, when a top SWA guy leaves, 4 people move up a seat (717 Capt goes to 737 Capt, 737 FO goes to 717 Capt, 717 FO moves up to higher paying 737 FO, and SWA has to hire into the 717 FO seat). Think what happens when a 744 or 777 Capt leaves Delta? The A330 or 764 Capt moves up to whale or 777 Capt, all the way down to newhire on the MD88. Unbelievable movement, and some years coming up here there are 800 or so scheduled retirements, in one year! How am I doing? Duh, WINNING! (thanks Charlie Sheen!).

Honestly, the movement will be slower at SWA compared to the Legacies. And, I am a lot happier now, not jealous. Good luck with that SLI



OYS

We have a new General Lee.

Congratulations.

 

[On Your Six]

You are being very optimistic with Delta. Very few pilots are retiring before they absolutely have to. The big retirements at Delta happen between 2020 and 2030. On the crystal ball, I'm showing hitting the 50 percent mark in 2024 (this assumes the list stays the same size which it won't, it is a shrinking list). I was hired in 2008 so that's a 16 year upgrade. I wouldn't call that a fantastic career or much better than a Southwest pilot.

2200 pilots will be "in the zone" by this Summer, that is between 60 and 65. 2000 will hit 65 within the next few years. That means movement. It may not mean right over to the left seat in a year, but people will be jumping up aircraft types (and pay scales) from year to year at a fast pace. 4000 pilots will retire over the next 10 years total. As I stated, if each guy that retires is a widebody Captain or narrowbody Captain, that means good things.

Southwest will have a lot less scheduled retirements, and gaining the younger Airtran pilots may cause some stagnation for years. Reading about these grandiose plans to fly to Europe and Hawaii are interesting, and humorous. The SWA guys are still saying it could take MORE than 24 months to integrate the AT guys. And they plan to start Major ETOPS service soon? Right.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

We have a new General Lee.

Congratulations.

I think Lee is funny, but I am not exactly like him. I was furloughed and then flew corporate. My experience is different. I do however share his displeasure of the way certain Southwest pilots treat their soon to be "brothers" at Airtran, and I have joined in on the various topics.

OYS