Southwest Pilots!

[SWA/FO]

its BS. Using the flaps to slow, who cares, thats what they are for. We don't live in a perfect world. As long as your below Boeings speeds, your fine.

Next time a check airman talks BS, make him show you in the book. To many Captain's liv'in in the past. Open the book every once in awhile.

 

[knelson]

Call for them and when they say no or not yet... reply "Ok then you set flaps to 5 when you want to." Or "IF I try to fly the airplane like you want me to, it will just f-me up so it might be better if you just give me flaps 5, now"

That's exactly what I try to say, but being on probation it usually comes out something like this. . . . "yes sir".

 

[RJones]

If the flap speed for the particular flap setting desired is obtained then regardless of the decent rate selection of that setting is OK. Flap selection speed is a structural design limit and shouldn't be exceeded, it is not a function of decent rate and if it is could someone point that out to me?

I actually took on this check airman about this issue and his only defense was it was in the book. I looked it up and indeed he was correct and I simply had to drop it. Now that it has changed I wonder if he still rants about it to others.

RJ

 

[mdf]

Ok...back to that making no sense at all...

What does descent rate have to do with anything? Uh...nothing? Why would descending at no more than 500 fpm make a difference with flap speed?

Well, the answer is: nothing. But thanks for playing.

It's funny, I was right without ever even seeing your manual.

Wow, thats really impressive. You must be some kind of aerodynamacyst.

 

[RJones]

Wow, thats really impressive. You must be some kind of aerodynamacyst.

He is an Aerodynamicist... but an "aerodynamacyst" he is not. And it should be 'that is' instead of "thats." Sure you didn't mess your logbook up to get that alleged 6k?

 

[RedBelly]

Ok...back to that making no sense at all...

What does descent rate have to do with anything? Uh...nothing? Why would descending at no more than 500 fpm make a difference with flap speed?

Well, the answer is: nothing. But thanks for playing.

It's funny, I was right without ever even seeing your manual.

Ok, I'll explain it real simple. Each flap setting has a minimum manuevering speed. When you put the flaps down, you are well above that speed. If descending, limiting your descent rate will cause you to slow down more quickly. The slower you go, the less load on the flap mechanism.

 

[Britpilot]

From then on it feels like i'm constanly doing higher math and figuring when to start dirtying up. I'll call for flaps and the captain will say I don't need 'em. 5 seconds later..."you want flaps 5?"

Ahh, what you need is the Boeing flap speed calculator/whizwheel/cheat sheet.
Available at your company store and customizable by the Captain you happen to be flying with at the time.
I went through the same stuff, never knew when to put out the flaps/gear/speed brake when flying with some guys. I do use the gear/brake combo when you need to get down in a hurry (got it from a former US Air guy) gives the most drag so highest rate of descent
.
So, howya doing Scotty?

 

[radarlove]

Ok, I'll explain it real simple. Each flap setting has a minimum manuevering speed. When you put the flaps down, you are well above that speed. If descending, limiting your descent rate will cause you to slow down more quickly. The slower you go, the less load on the flap mechanism.

Missed on the "simple" part, but hit on the "wrong" part.

Re the flaps: you are either at, or above flap maneuvering speed, regardless of descent rate.

Remember your very first ground school, where they talked about angle-of-attack? And how it doesn't matter what direction the wing is headed, just where the relative wind was coming from?

Same with flaps. The only thing stressing them is load, and the load comes from airspeed. The flaps don't know if you're light and barely descending, heavy and descending with powerd--the fpm is meaningless.

Airspeed is not.

Back to your regularly scheduled physics lesson...

 

[mdf]

He is an Aerodynamicist... but an "aerodynamacyst" he is not. And it should be 'that is' instead of "thats." Sure you didn't mess your logbook up to get that alleged 6k?

Just messing around Rico. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. 12,200 flight hours in all those different airplanes. Now "that is" impressive.

 

[RJones]

Hey, it's all good.:beer:

 

[RedBelly]

Missed on the "simple" part, but hit on the "wrong" part.

Re the flaps: you are either at, or above flap maneuvering speed, regardless of descent rate.

Remember your very first ground school, where they talked about angle-of-attack? And how it doesn't matter what direction the wing is headed, just where the relative wind was coming from?

Same with flaps. The only thing stressing them is load, and the load comes from airspeed. The flaps don't know if you're light and barely descending, heavy and descending with powerd--the fpm is meaningless.

Airspeed is not.

Back to your regularly scheduled physics lesson...

Ok...so you agree that Airspeed is meaningful in terms of load on the flap mechanism.

How then, can you not see that a technique to reduce airspeed quickly after flap extension helps to reduce the load on the flaps?

The idea is not to descend with power on at 500 fpm... the idea is to reduce the airspeed as quickly as possible.

 

[RedBelly]

its BS. Using the flaps to slow, who cares, thats what they are for. We don't live in a perfect world. As long as your below Boeings speeds, your fine.

I would have to disagree... the flaps are not there to slow you down. They are there to allow you to go slow.

 

[qratez]

I would have to disagree... the flaps are not there to slow you down. They are there to allow you to go slow.

Flaps increase lift...a by-product of lift is drag....therefore by extending flaps you increase lift which will allow you to fly slower and at the same time increasing drag which will slow you down....now im confused...

 

[ivauir]

Ok, I'll explain it real simple. Each flap setting has a minimum manuevering speed. When you put the flaps down, you are well above that speed. If descending, limiting your descent rate will cause you to slow down more quickly. The slower you go, the less load on the flap mechanism.

But descent rate rate and speed are not the same (related yes, but not the same) If I am at the manuever speed, wings level and decending at a constant rate (therefore 1g) when we move the flaps then I am putting he least stress possible on the airplane. What that descent rate is doesn't matter. The descent rate only affects how quickly I'll slow down, outside of ATC constraints I like to slow down gradually, follow the glidepath, and configure on speed.

I understand what you are saying, and I do just what you describe when ATC constraints force my hand, but it isn't the only way to fly the plane.

That's exactly what I try to say, but being on probation it usually comes out something like this. . . . "yes sir".

Dude, being on probabtion has nothing to do with it. Just be respectful about it, but you are paid to keep the Capt from farking up. You can't do that if you are afraid of your own shadow. If you start taking their word for it soon you too will be flying using procedures from 4 revisions ago. If it doesn't make sense talk about it. Look it up. Ask a check airman. Heck, use your FNG status and say "Really? I must have missed that. Thanks for pointing it out." Then pull out the book and look for it. Even if you know it isn't there. Almost all of the Captains will tolerate and even appreciate your efforts. The ones that don't are known to the pwers that be. A negative probie report from them should be worn like a badge of honor.

It is not your job to please your Captain. (That sounds bad - sickos). It is your job to help the Captain operate your pairing in accordance with SWA policy and procedures. If you finish a trip and never make a callout or question a course of action then you are no more than a talking checklist and yoke actuator. For all practical purposes your captain is solo.

 

[SWA/FO]

I would have to disagree... the flaps are not there to slow you down. They are there to allow you to go slow.

As long as you don't leave the thrust levers full forward, flaps slow you down. Some calll it "DRAG".

being on probabtion has nothing to do with it

has a lot to do with it.