Southwest "exits" runway.....again.

[BILL LUMBERG]

Glad you are enjoying the misfortunes of fellow aviators Mr Bill. Even if you think some dudes on FI are jerks, why the enjoyment of this incident?

No enjoyment in this incident.....it can happen to ANY airline.

I just love the Herb Turds and the usual SWAbashers going at it. It's pure entertainment!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I have seen the taxiway myself with the jet in the mud. I dont believe speed was even close to be a factor. The taxiway curved and i think both pilots were head down.

Then they were going too fast for for 2 pilots heads down ops, that is the beauty of prima facie concept.

 

[FCPhotography]

Was in the back of the one in DEN last month. 1/4 mile vis, heavy snow and CAT3 to get in. We were not taxing fast at all. Anti-skid cycled, nose wheel didn't grab, reversers full reverse as we glided gently into the grass.
The taxi way was 100% solid ice and it was very difficult walking to the buses.

That day the temps in DEN were above freezing. When we landed the temp was in the low 20's (according to the airport ops that night) and not one taxi way or runway was treated. We were taxiing so slow I thought I was going to miss my connecting flight, which I ended up missing anyway.

Have to disagree with the SWA bashing on this one. Why wasn't it Delta? Because Delta has 3 gates there and they land 1 plane every hour. SWA has 35 gates and they land 30 planes an hour. Then why wasn't it United? Sometimes it is United. DEN has 2-3 planes (mainline or RJ) leave the taxi way or runway every year. Remember the Continental 2 years ago, or the DAL heavy landing on a taxi way in ATL? Or the DC-9 that hit the AirBus in MSP because they turned off the brakes by shutting the wrong engine down on the taxi in? Don't remember one person saying they better slow down.

 

[Dan Roman]

We all live in glass houses, but as Bill said it's kind of entertaining watching the SWA debates on here! What would happen to FI if we didn't have them?
I'm a little surprised you SWA guys don't bring up DAL's troubles in the 90's as ammunition. (Sorry General)
That said, SWA does taxi faster, on average, than any other airline. I've seen SWA many times operate in a way that is less than professional in order to try and cut in front of other airplanes ( although the worst I ever saw was one of my colleagues doing it to competitor about 20 years ago, but that's a different story) and flying like you are Tony Stewart does undermine safety. It's the only reason a SWA 737 went off the runway in BUR. You guys can get away with it because you spend your entire career doing nothing but fly 737's and doing lot's of segments so you are good at flying them, but it isn't a very professional way to operate.

 

[SWAdude]

and flying like you are Tony Stewart does undermine safety. It's the only reason a SWA 737 went off the runway in BUR.

Being a part of that investigation you couldn't be more wrong. There is so much bad info on this board it is no longer trustworthy. Many people making up alot of BS because of some inner thing they have going on.

I have flown for three major airlines and the most professional has been SWA. Every airline has some that make us all look bad. Being in the SWA system for almost twenty years I just haven't seen what some of you are saying and I am in much more of a position to witness those behaviors. I have witnessed much more aggressive behavior from others than ours. Contrary to FI folklore, we are not always in a hurry. It is not our culture today. We are largely a happy pilot group that feel how delicate our job is and have much to lose. We are not going to risk our families or our own future by operating what some here are saying, carelessly. That is just farking stupid to think otherwise.

If you think taxing 30 knots on a straight taxiway is unprofessional and careless then you must be scared sh......itless landing at 135 kts. Use some common sense here.

 

[Dan Roman]

OK I'll bite.....and admit I am basing my opinion on recalling a report that said he was at the outer marker clean and doing something in the neighborhood of 250 kts. That's all I remember of the accident report. If that's true though, the fact remains, he was in a hurry, that's why he went off the runway.
Don't know where you get I am afraid of taxing 30 kts in a straight line. I'm talking about rushing to get ahead of others, going fast and then having to jam on the brakes so hard you can see the airplane rock back and forth etc etc.

 

[SWA Bubba]

We all live in glass houses, but as Bill said it's kind of entertaining watching the SWA debates on here! What would happen to FI if we didn't have them?
I'm a little surprised you SWA guys don't bring up DAL's troubles in the 90's as ammunition. (Sorry General)
That said, SWA does taxi faster, on average, than any other airline. I've seen SWA many times operate in a way that is less than professional in order to try and cut in front of other airplanes ( although the worst I ever saw was one of my colleagues doing it to competitor about 20 years ago, but that's a different story) and flying like you are Tony Stewart does undermine safety. It's the only reason a SWA 737 went off the runway in BUR. You guys can get away with it because you spend your entire career doing nothing but fly 737's and doing lot's of segments so you are good at flying them, but it isn't a very professional way to operate.

Well, thanks Dan (and Bill as well) for acknowledging the SWA bashing on this and other threads. At least you two guys don't hide your airline's identities and ONLYpost to bash SWA, like some alcoholics on this forum (not to mention any names or anything! )

And I don't personally bring up other airlines troubles other than to refute specific stuff. Like you guys all know, we ALL live in glass houses, stuff happens to ALL our airlines, and most of the time it's a case of "there but for the grace of God, go I."

I'll grant you that Southwest does taxi faster, on average, than many other airlines. However, that doesn't make it unsafe or even unprofessional. Some airlines taxi inordinately and absurdly slow, just to pad their block times and paychecks, regardless of how it affects everyone else using the airport. Is THAT behavior professional?

Our rules say a max of 20kts in general, or 30kts on long straightaways (like parallels). Like I said before, the FAA knows our limits, monitors our compliance, and has never had an issue with our taxi speed. Nor have they ever listed taxi speed as a factor in any Southwest incident.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

OK I'll bite.....and admit I am basing my opinion on recalling a report that said he was at the outer marker clean and doing something in the neighborhood of 250 kts. That's all I remember of the accident report. If that's true though, the fact remains, he was in a hurry, that's why he went off the runway.
Don't know where you get I am afraid of taxing 30 kts in a straight line. I'm talking about rushing to get ahead of others, going fast and then having to jam on the brakes so hard you can see the airplane rock back and forth etc etc.

In that particular incident, the pilot was kept high, and then directed by ATC to keep his speed up. Obviously, in hindsight, he should have refused the clearance, and failing that, should have gone around. But it wasn't simply a case of a Southwest guy just being in "his normal hurry"; he was trying to accomodate ATC's wishes (directions), and then ended up exceeding his airplane (as well as his own) limitations.

As a result of that incident, Southwest changed a lot of procedures relating to stabilized approaches, including directing us in writing to positively refuse certain ATC clearances relating to being stabilized.

Hope this helps,
Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

Well the truth be known Bubba, I just switched to the A330 and brake temps are BIG issue when taxing. The recommended technique is to allow the speed to increase to 30kts or 35 kts before slowing the A/C down! The reason is to minimize the number of brake applications to keep the temps below 300 degrees before takeoff.
Make no mistake about it, most SWA flights I see taxing are as smooth and professional as anyone. But the few cowboys you see from time to time do usually seem to be SWA, and I have seen a few doozies .

 

[Dan Roman]

In that particular incident, the pilot was kept high, and then directed by ATC to keep his speed up. Obviously, in hindsight, he should have refused the clearance, and failing that, should have gone around. But it wasn't simply a case of a Southwest guy just being in "his normal hurry"; he was trying to accomodate ATC's wishes (directions), and then ended up exceeding his airplane (as well as his own) limitations.

As a result of that incident, Southwest changed a lot of procedures relating to stabilized approaches, including directing us in writing to positively refuse certain ATC clearances relating to being stabilized.

Hope this helps,
Bubba

Thanks, I was wrong, it could happen to anyone. We all live in glass houses!

Happy New Year Dude.