Southwest Cockpit

[dojetdriver]

I have flown both, and I can tell you I really don't care. I did find that most of the guys I flew with that never had much round dial experience, ie:J32, and were hired into the CRJ as FO's, were usually Glass Cripples. If you have gotten this far and you NEED glass tapes to fly, you really aren't that great of a pilot to begin with.

When I was new hire at my last job, my sim parter was on the 32 for 4 years. He was just as much as a "glass cripple" as myself. Yes he was a good pilot, and all the other former 32 driver in class had the same complaints about trying to adapt to the glass.

The point of my comment wasn't about who's the better pilot or who has the bigger peni$. On your 6th, 7th, or 8th leg of the day, which would you rather be flying? The airplane where you have to look a 6 round dials or one 6 X 8 screen for all pertinent infomation. Sorry, I'm an airline pilot which means I'm lazy and like things as simple as possible, especially if I have to spend 12-14 hours a day in an airplane.

 

[mach zero]

I think SWA was paying market price for fuel, they'd have the VNAV going w/ autothrottles.....More efficient.

The powers to be in Flt Ops have studied the A/T system in-depth and conluded that it will not work at SWA becuase the increased maintenance associated with the system will overide any cost savings gained from using them. They may re-evaluate this conclusion as we become a -700 dominated fleet ie. the soon to be used Autobrakes. However, don't assume we are cruising along fat, dumb, and happy since we have hedges. Every available aspect of flight ops is continuously under scrutiny for ways to save $.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I think SWA was paying market price for fuel, they'd have the VNAV going w/ autothrottles.....More efficient.

Is there any data from Boeing or anyone else that states that V-NAV and autothrottles are more fuel efficient? Maybe that data could be posted here.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

but it has to be flown with vertical speed and manual power adjustments.

One can also use CWS-pitch mode instead of the V/S.

Tejas

 

[Old School 737]

This is true, but I was trying to keep it simple as most people do not know or have CWS. One could also use LVL Change as well.

 

[VAPOR]

seems like a waste of technology to display round gauges on an efis

 

[Dizel8]

It probably have to do with Cross Crew Qaulifications, although that normally refers to say 75-76 or 320-330, but in the case of SWA, I would imagine since they operate both the old and the NG, that the feds required it. Otherwise SWA might have been stuck with pilots flying a specific "fleet" ie NG, obviously that wouldn't work to well in the scheme of things.

 

[Jim Smyth]

All that stuff cost money and SWA is frugle to say the least! We usually buy it when it cost 10 cents on the dollar. SWA also has the opinion that they want us to stay sharp with our flying skills. Thats why years ago they went with the HUD (hand flown) for the Cat 3 approaches rather than go to a full up system. They are correct in there assumptions too. I used to work for Midway Airlines back in the mid 80's/early 90's. We had all the old steam powered airplanes! Then we got the MD-80's with all the bells and whistles. The company wanted us to fly it with the autopilot as much as possible. When the guys came through 6 months to a year later for there sim checks they could barely hand fly a 2 engine approach decently yet alone a single engine approach. Totally lost there flying skills! Midway then decided to go back to more hand flying and the problem was solved. We are creatures of habit and tend to get lazy if allowed to do so.

 

[HalinTexas]

Of all the airplanes I've flown with an A/T, none have ever been deferred. No B737 A/P was ever deferred, but I've flown B757 and L10's with an A/P deferred and I've flown with a HUD deferred a couple of times. So, the cost/negative benefit analysis doesn't hold water with me. I could understand it with an older generation, but they work really well in the modern era. The true cost savings is realized in T/O and climb power settings. The advantage is less workload and more situational awareness in an approach environment, i.e. you look outside more. The trouble with A/T is complacency. If you don't stay disciplined you could find yourself in trouble should get too far behind the power curve.

VNAV in the B737 is a POS. Works OK in a theoretical, non-ATC influenced environment. The manufacturer should be embarrassed.

 

[radarlove]

Thats why years ago they went with the HUD (hand flown) for the Cat 3 approaches rather than go to a full up system.

Umm...I thought it was because SWA bought Morris and got the HUD whether they wanted it or not. At least that's what my ex-Morris friend told me. Southwest can do Cat III approaches because of Neelman's foresight as far as he's concerned.

 

[sf260pilot]

In certain configurations, don't the A/T "jockey" the power up and down.
I also read where SWA as the launch customer for the -700 had Boeing program the glass in a round dial configuration. Don't know if they were the first or not.

 

[COpilot]

Fighter pilots don't need them. It wastes time because it is just another layer standing between the pilot and the flying.

What the hell are you talking about? The B737 is not a fricken fighter, its an airline transport aircraft. But if you fly your pax around like its a fighter, more power to you.

The technology was designed and put there for a reason, why don't you learn to use it.

"Idiot"

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Who's paying your bills?

Fighter pilots don't need them. It wastes time because it is just another layer standing between the pilot and the flying.

And Uncle Sam is paying for your gas as well. If the fighters had VNav you wouldn't have to tank as much and would save the taxpayers millions. That's why the military is not in the business of making money. They just burn through it as fast as they can. Kind of like a fighter.

Cheers!

 

[scoreboard]

And Uncle Sam is paying for your gas as well. If the fighters had VNav you wouldn't have to tank as much and would save the taxpayers millions. That's why the military is not in the business of making money. They just burn through it as fast as they can. Kind of like a fighter.

Cheers!

They do have VNAV, it's called a drone:

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2005/february/i_tt.html

And thank God I'm retired...

 

[canyonblue737]

boeing readily admits that there is no cost savings associated with using autothrottles. they have not a single study, paper anything which shows otherwise. hand flown throttles are also smoother in general. boeing mainly promotes AT as a safety item that helps the pilot but we at SWA feel that by not using it we improve safety by keeping the pilot "flying" the aircraft at all times and there is a cost associated with AT even if only for checks etc. VNAV is so integrated with AT that is a big reason we don't use the VNAV. we do have descent planning info in the FMC and use it with VS, CWS, Level Change etc. to help plan our descents.

our glass round dials do have "enhancements" that of course only glass could provide such as color changing and moving arcs, self bugging a/s, etc. plus we have a full moving map just like the tape display NG. it is truly sorta half and half and allows moving between classic and NG seemlessly while still enjoying many glass enhancements that the classics don't share.

the Morris deal was the start of the HUD but SWA came to see how great it was and now fully embraces the program for our IIIA approaches. the cost is less than autoland and again embraces the "automate but fly" attitude i think the pilot group has.

clearly moving forward SWA will likely embrace new ways (and some of you will tell us without a doubt it is already "old") of doing things but not before a full vetting of cost, safety, and a fit with the culture of SWA. what a great concept!

 

[radarlove]

we have a full moving map just like the tape display NG.

Dude, I'm looking at your avatar and if that's a SWA display, which I think it is, you do NOT have a "full" moving map. It looks like barely half a moving map.

Keep telling yourself that making all of your fleet operate identical to a 1960s airplane (which you don't even have any more!) has some sort of higher moral meaning than simply being scared of change.

Do you suppose Boeing and Airbus have spent just a tiny bit of time on their automation and ergonomics since 1968? Or was the B737 -200 the best airplane ever made, no improvements could ever occur? And all of that work in the last 35 years that Boeing has done should be deactivated as new airplanes arrive in your hangar?

You guys are silly.

(But I gotta admit, your pay is pretty darn good I'm sure it makes drinking the "I hate automation" kool-aide a lot easier)

 

[TR4A]

plus we have a full moving map just like the tape display NG.

Actually WE don't have a full map. We have about 2/3 of a full map. We have two instruments on that map display. The other one doesn't.

 

[canyonblue737]

Actually WE don't have a full map. We have about 2/3 of a full map. We have two instruments on that map display. The other one doesn't.

by "full" i meant it displays the same content and symblogy as the tape display NG aircraft. it just does it on a 2/3rd's width screen so the content is compressed. everything else is identical, ie. a 19 inch tv showing the same thing as a 23 inch tv.

 

[TexaSWA]

Dude, I'm looking at your avatar and if that's a SWA display, which I think it is, you do NOT have a "full" moving map. It looks like barely half a moving map.

Keep telling yourself that making all of your fleet operate identical to a 1960s airplane (which you don't even have any more!) has some sort of higher moral meaning than simply being scared of change.

Do you suppose Boeing and Airbus have spent just a tiny bit of time on their automation and ergonomics since 1968? Or was the B737 -200 the best airplane ever made, no improvements could ever occur? And all of that work in the last 35 years that Boeing has done should be deactivated as new airplanes arrive in your hangar?

You guys are silly.

(But I gotta admit, your pay is pretty darn good I'm sure it makes drinking the "I hate automation" kool-aide a lot easier)

Youre a funny guy.