Southwest Cockpit

[citabriapilot]

Noticed on airliners.net that most of the 737NGs at other operators have a typical PFD with tape gauges, while the photos I saw from Southwest had a "six-pack" style setup with all the typical instruments, just in the six pack design and no tapes.

Is that how Southwest wants it, or is it just a preference that the flight crews can change back and forth? Or a difference in the avionics?

Just curious

 

[Cardinal]

Carriers opeating as a mixed fleet (Classic + NG) do this almost universally. CAL has the same configuration. Keeps the scan the same when you jump between generations on a daily basis. Flight crews can't change it. A pity, really. Operators like Air Berlin use the full functionality, and it's beautiful.

 

[citabriapilot]

I figured it had something to do with standardization between the two. I never noticed it before, though. Interesting.

 

[Widow's Son]

SWA pioneered the concept and requested round depictions when they ordered the NG's. There was initial resistence, but now there have been some studies that show that analog depictions (round dial with a needle) are much more intuitive than tapes. The eye, especially peripherally, can quickly detect a needle out of its normal position much easier and more quickly than decipher an indication on a tape.

 

[Ty Webb]

Operators like Air Berlin use the full functionality, and it's beautiful.

Yah, und der AirTran makes mit all of der functionality, too . . . . including der go-faster automatikly and der stoppen-quickly mit der fus on der floorboards, too.

 

[COpilot]

So whats up with no A/T, or VNAV, is this a standardization thing also? Again why not use the technology that is aviable?

Just asking,

 

[USAFftrplt]

same reason that folks still by Stick Shift cars..saves costs..not needed to get the job done

 

[radarlove]

SWA pioneered the concept and requested round depictions when they ordered the NG's. There was initial resistence, but now there have been some studies that show that analog depictions (round dial with a needle) are much more intuitive than tapes. The eye, especially peripherally, can quickly detect a needle out of its normal position much easier and more quickly than decipher an indication on a tape.

I call bullsh1t on this one. Source?

 

[radarlove]

So whats up with no A/T, or VNAV, is this a standardization thing also? Again why not use the technology that is aviable?

Just asking,

I think it's called "Being a Luddite"

 

[milehigh6080]

same reason that folks still buy Stick Shift cars..saves costs..not needed to get the job done

And because it's a lot more fun to drive a stick. I don't have much glass experience, but I enjoy flying round guages and don't really look forward to moving on to a plane with glass.

 

[citabriapilot]

So did I detect someone saying that Southwest doesn't have autothrottles? I jumpseated on a -300 and the pilots set all the power settings by hand, but I thought the throttles had the words A/T Disconnect next to a button stamped on them.

 

[F/O]

SWA pioneered the concept and requested round depictions when they ordered the NG's. There was initial resistence, but now there have been some studies that show that analog depictions (round dial with a needle) are much more intuitive than tapes. The eye, especially peripherally, can quickly detect a needle out of its normal position much easier and more quickly than decipher an indication on a tape.

Maybe for an engine gauge. Not for airspeed and altitude. We aren't gonna see round dials on the 787, for example, and there's a reason why.

 

[Old School 737]

I'm not a SWA pilot but I know many and have ridden up front many times. yes they have autothrottles but they are disconnected. So they can't use them and the power must be set manual. Also the v-nav button is blanked out so they can't use it either, but the box still can be programed to give them a v-nav descent/crossing restrictions but it has to be flown with vertical speed and manual power adjustments.

 

[dojetdriver]

And because it's a lot more fun to drive a stick. I don't have much glass experience, but I enjoy flying round guages and don't really look forward to moving on to a plane with glass.

Wait, if you ever get into a glass enviorment, you will never want to go back to round dial.

By glass I mean the full thing, not the half and half like some older 73's or most 75's

 

[(o) (o)]

Wait, if you ever get into a glass enviorment, you will never want to go back to round dial.

By glass I mean the full thing, not the half and half like some older 73's or most 75's

It's called "half-a&&ed" glass

 

[Baronman]

I think SWA was paying market price for fuel, they'd have the VNAV going w/ autothrottles.....More efficient.

 

[milehigh6080]

Wait, if you ever get into a glass enviorment, you will never want to go back to round dial.

By glass I mean the full thing, not the half and half like some older 73's or most 75's

It might be easier, but can't be more fun. Tricycle gear planes are easier than taildraggers, but I'd take a Super Cub or Pitts any day. I know glass allows you to fly more precisely, efficently, yadda yadda. Professional flying isn't about the pilots having fun, but if I was picking the plane, I'd take a Taildragger converted 727.

 

[Yahtzee]

Maybe for an engine gauge. Not for airspeed and altitude. We aren't gonna see round dials on the 787, for example, and there's a reason why.

And that reason is what? 25 hours on a layover and I'm in suspense. My guess isn't HF engineering, but personal preference. If someone does have any HF studies do you have a link?

Having flown KC-135Rs (old school round dials), an all glass T-1 (a version of a BeechJet 400), glass C-17s, and 737-300, 500 and 700s, here's my .02: I hated the tapes in the C-17 for both airspeed and altitude.

The only saving grace for the C-17 tapes is the fact it had a HUD on both sides...although a C-17 HUD pales in comparisons to the ones the Capt has at SWA. The SWA version is about three times as wide.

Tapes or round dials...It may be what you get use to or personal preference, but for me it is much easier read a round gauge than a tape. Maybe it's because it's what I learned first or have the most experience with. My preference is a glass dial for engine instruments, airspeed, and altitude. Leave the tapes for the seamstress.

Of all the planes I've flown, I think the T-1 had the best overall display and the easiest crosscheck of all...No HUD, no tapes, just a well-designed display and a fun jet to fly.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

[canyonblue]

Wait, if you ever get into a glass enviorment, you will never want to go back to round dial.

I have flown both, and I can tell you I really don't care. I did find that most of the guys I flew with that never had much round dial experience, ie:J32, and were hired into the CRJ as FO's, were usually Glass Cripples. If you have gotten this far and you NEED glass tapes to fly, you really aren't that great of a pilot to begin with.

 

[densoo]

So whats up with no A/T, or VNAV, is this a standardization thing also?

Fighter pilots don't need them. It wastes time because it is just another layer standing between the pilot and the flying.

 

[dojetdriver]

I have flown both, and I can tell you I really don't care. I did find that most of the guys I flew with that never had much round dial experience, ie:J32, and were hired into the CRJ as FO's, were usually Glass Cripples. If you have gotten this far and you NEED glass tapes to fly, you really aren't that great of a pilot to begin with.

When I was new hire at my last job, my sim parter was on the 32 for 4 years. He was just as much as a "glass cripple" as myself. Yes he was a good pilot, and all the other former 32 driver in class had the same complaints about trying to adapt to the glass.

The point of my comment wasn't about who's the better pilot or who has the bigger peni$. On your 6th, 7th, or 8th leg of the day, which would you rather be flying? The airplane where you have to look a 6 round dials or one 6 X 8 screen for all pertinent infomation. Sorry, I'm an airline pilot which means I'm lazy and like things as simple as possible, especially if I have to spend 12-14 hours a day in an airplane.

 

[mach zero]

I think SWA was paying market price for fuel, they'd have the VNAV going w/ autothrottles.....More efficient.

The powers to be in Flt Ops have studied the A/T system in-depth and conluded that it will not work at SWA becuase the increased maintenance associated with the system will overide any cost savings gained from using them. They may re-evaluate this conclusion as we become a -700 dominated fleet ie. the soon to be used Autobrakes. However, don't assume we are cruising along fat, dumb, and happy since we have hedges. Every available aspect of flight ops is continuously under scrutiny for ways to save $.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I think SWA was paying market price for fuel, they'd have the VNAV going w/ autothrottles.....More efficient.

Is there any data from Boeing or anyone else that states that V-NAV and autothrottles are more fuel efficient? Maybe that data could be posted here.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

but it has to be flown with vertical speed and manual power adjustments.

One can also use CWS-pitch mode instead of the V/S.

Tejas

 

[Old School 737]

This is true, but I was trying to keep it simple as most people do not know or have CWS. One could also use LVL Change as well.

 

[VAPOR]

seems like a waste of technology to display round gauges on an efis

 

[Dizel8]

It probably have to do with Cross Crew Qaulifications, although that normally refers to say 75-76 or 320-330, but in the case of SWA, I would imagine since they operate both the old and the NG, that the feds required it. Otherwise SWA might have been stuck with pilots flying a specific "fleet" ie NG, obviously that wouldn't work to well in the scheme of things.

 

[Jim Smyth]

All that stuff cost money and SWA is frugle to say the least! We usually buy it when it cost 10 cents on the dollar. SWA also has the opinion that they want us to stay sharp with our flying skills. Thats why years ago they went with the HUD (hand flown) for the Cat 3 approaches rather than go to a full up system. They are correct in there assumptions too. I used to work for Midway Airlines back in the mid 80's/early 90's. We had all the old steam powered airplanes! Then we got the MD-80's with all the bells and whistles. The company wanted us to fly it with the autopilot as much as possible. When the guys came through 6 months to a year later for there sim checks they could barely hand fly a 2 engine approach decently yet alone a single engine approach. Totally lost there flying skills! Midway then decided to go back to more hand flying and the problem was solved. We are creatures of habit and tend to get lazy if allowed to do so.

 

[HalinTexas]

Of all the airplanes I've flown with an A/T, none have ever been deferred. No B737 A/P was ever deferred, but I've flown B757 and L10's with an A/P deferred and I've flown with a HUD deferred a couple of times. So, the cost/negative benefit analysis doesn't hold water with me. I could understand it with an older generation, but they work really well in the modern era. The true cost savings is realized in T/O and climb power settings. The advantage is less workload and more situational awareness in an approach environment, i.e. you look outside more. The trouble with A/T is complacency. If you don't stay disciplined you could find yourself in trouble should get too far behind the power curve.

VNAV in the B737 is a POS. Works OK in a theoretical, non-ATC influenced environment. The manufacturer should be embarrassed.

 

[radarlove]

Thats why years ago they went with the HUD (hand flown) for the Cat 3 approaches rather than go to a full up system.

Umm...I thought it was because SWA bought Morris and got the HUD whether they wanted it or not. At least that's what my ex-Morris friend told me. Southwest can do Cat III approaches because of Neelman's foresight as far as he's concerned.