Southwest changing it's "stance" in ATL. HMMMMMM

[fr8doggie]

Yes, I won't deny that but you are again missing the point. At FedEx there is a $36 an hour premium flying the larger equipment. That alone coupled with trip density skews the results. As I said before, it's all about the money! That is why I used the UPS example. When all equipment is paid at the same rate, many will opt out of long haul international flying. I'm not trying to say long haul international sucks, I'm simply saying that when you remove the higher pay from the equation many will opt for front side of the clock domestic flying. If SWA had lengthy multi-day pairings that paid more and offered me more time at home, I would swallow my aversion to week long pairings and flock to where the money is.

Actually, you are not getting my point. At FDX the 777/MD11/A300 all pay the same rate ($261/hr max). So how come I can hold ATL-MEM (incredibly easy flying) but not MEM-CDG-...? Int'l goes extremely senior at FDX. Because people like the flying, the destinations, the layovers, etc. I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both.

Can't speak for the pax world but we love our int'l long haul here at FDX.

I'd like to hear from any UPS guys what the really senior flying is over there.

Regards,
Fr8-

 

[fam62c]

Fine. Maybe now he can bid off to the 717, now that it's the new least desireable position. Months ago when I talked to him, he couldn't. The point it, that a lot of your 767 International FOs are there because of their juniority. Do a lot really, really like International ops and wouldn't leave when they get the opportunity? Sure, probably some. You are a self-professed prime example of this. You like it. Good for you.

My point was that there's people who like international, but there's also a lot who do not, including at your airline. A lot of times it works out that they get what they want. Just like over here: there's people who love AMs and people who love PMs; there's people who love long-hauls, and believe it or not, pilots who love the Texas two-step. However, when there's even a little disparity, it's the junior guys who have to do the flying that isn't their choice. And it turns out that there's not enough pilots who love International, so some junior guys are forced to do it to make up the numbers.

I'm happy that you like your international flying. I really am. Why aren't you happy in return that a lot of guys prefer domestic flying? Both groups get to do what they want, and fly the trips they think are better. You're not going to convince them, and they're not going to convince you. Think about it, General: they're actually doing you a favor. The fact that junior guys get forced to do international flying enhances your seniority. I mean, if everyone wanted it, YOU wouldn't be senior enough to hold it.

Can we stop the "my overnight is better than yours" BS now?

Bubba

I think the point that you are both making is that being junior at any airline means you don't have many options. A pilot who doesn't want to do long-range flying but is forced to isn't going to be any happier than an FO who lives on the east coast and will be spending years on reserve in Oakland getting the crappy trips that nobody else will fly.

Being an airline pilot is a far better job for pilots with seniority because that's what gives you options. When you take a job you have to consider what it will be like to be at the bottom and be willing to deal with it until things, hopefully, get better. Being senior at either DAl or SW and having control over your schedule, base, vacation and getting a lot of days off would be excellent. Being very junior at either place would be tough but everybody has to be junior before they can be senior.

 

[HowardBorden]

Actually, you are not getting my point. At FDX the 777/MD11/A300 all pay the same rate ($261/hr max). So how come I can hold ATL-MEM (incredibly easy flying) but not MEM-CDG-...? Int'l goes extremely senior at FDX. Because people like the flying, the destinations, the layovers, etc. I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both.

Can't speak for the pax world but we love our int'l long haul here at FDX.

I'd like to hear from any UPS guys what the really senior flying is over there.

Regards,
Fr8-

Fair enough, I don't work at UPS, my info comes from a senior UPS F.O. I am with you on this one though: "I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both." I wholeheartedly agree SYD sounds more fun than SYR for 60 hours. My question is this, why in the world would you spend 60 hours in SYR? Is it for crew rest? If these are typical domestic layovers then maybe that is the answer to the question why international goes senior. I am told that UPS domestic flying allows for shorter trips and shorter layovers translating to more time at home and less back side of the clock flying all for the same pay. I also would love some UPS guys to chime in since my data comes from only one person and may be tied to his personal preferences.

From another forum:

Question:
"Avoiding red eyes/int'l at FDX/UPS Yeah, I know, an oxymoron.

Still, just wondering: how long does it take to hold a regular domestic daytime schedule? For example, daytime hub turns. No night flying and no crossing int'l time zones?

Answer:

I've been at FedEx for 25 years, I'll let you know. I don't have the seniority quite yet.

 

[SWA Bubba]

WOW!
Question, Why don't pilots run airlines?
Answer, Because they don't know how to run an airline!

Now GL And Bubba you guys "are in more dire need of a blow job than any white man in history"

Hey, all -I- said was that International by itself isn't the be-all and end-all for everyone. Some people like it; some hate it; some don't care; some chase extra money regardless of the hassle-factor; some don't care as much about the extra; some place more worth on layover locations; etc., etc. To each their own. I'm not trying to run an airline; you have me confused with someone else.

But your bolded comment above does raise some interesting questions:

1. How do you know whether I'm white or not? Do non-whites get blown more, or do whites just need it more?
2. How do you know that I, in particular, am in need? How do you know that I'm not getting blown whilst sitting at the keyboard?
and finally...
3. You offering your services? Are you a professional, uh... "blower"?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I think the point that you are both making is that being junior at any airline means you don't have many options. A pilot who doesn't want to do long-range flying but is forced to isn't going to be any happier than an FO who lives on the east coast and will be spending years on reserve in Oakland getting the crappy trips that nobody else will fly.

Being an airline pilot is a far better job for pilots with seniority because that's what gives you options. When you take a job you have to consider what it will be like to be at the bottom and be willing to deal with it until things, hopefully, get better. Being senior at either DAl or SW and having control over your schedule, base, vacation and getting a lot of days off would be excellent. Being very junior at either place would be tough but everybody has to be junior before they can be senior.

True 'dat.

Bubba

 

[fr8doggie]

Fair enough, I don't work at UPS, my info comes from a senior UPS F.O. I am with you on this one though: "I'd much rather layover for 60hr in SYD than 60hr in SYR. We have both." I wholeheartedly agree SYD sounds more fun than SYR for 60 hours. My question is this, why in the world would you spend 60 hours in SYR? Is it for crew rest? If these are typical domestic layovers then maybe that is the answer to the question why international goes senior. I am told that UPS domestic flying allows for shorter trips and shorter layovers translating to more time at home and less back side of the clock flying all for the same pay. I also would love some UPS guys to chime in since my data comes from only one person and may be tied to his personal preferences.

From another forum:

Question:
"Avoiding red eyes/int'l at FDX/UPS Yeah, I know, an oxymoron.

Still, just wondering: how long does it take to hold a regular domestic daytime schedule? For example, daytime hub turns. No night flying and no crossing int'l time zones?

Answer:

I've been at FedEx for 25 years, I'll let you know. I don't have the seniority quite yet.

We have long layovers because that fits the FedEx business model. Either over a weekend or because the cost of D/Hing crews in and out is more expensive than laying us over.

Not to say that my FDX associate is exaggerating but I could have held 10 day only lines in May. Not to mention several PM out and back lines. That's as a Capt. An F/O could probably hold that after 5 or so years if he stayed on the 757. What I couldn't have held was ANY international flying. That's at about 40% on the MEM MD11. Been here 24 years. Gets worse on the 777. I'd be about 90% there.

Now, the guy who lives in SYR is all over that 60hr layover.

Regards,
Fr8-

 

[HowardBorden]

We have long layovers because that fits the FedEx business model. Either over a weekend or because the cost of D/Hing crews in and out is more expensive than laying us over.

Not to say that my FDX associate is exaggerating but I could have held 10 day only lines in May. Not to mention several PM out and back lines. That's as a Capt. An F/O could probably hold that after 5 or so years if he stayed on the 757. What I couldn't have held was ANY international flying. That's at about 40% on the MEM MD11. Been here 24 years. Gets worse on the 777. I'd be about 90% there.

Now, the guy who lives in SYR is all over that 60hr layover.

Regards,
Fr8-

Got it, thanks for the info.

 

[dalad]

Here's my take, I like both the domestic and international flying, and won't bid out of my category because of that. i like the international flying for the rest breaks, three man or four man, a bunk if four man. I have never had a problem sleeping which is a huge plus. I also like the domestic transcons and the long turns to the islands were we use two crews. I do the SXM and STT turns out of JFK and get about 8:30-8:45 pay for a day. I just did an out of base pickup were I flew ATL-JAX, 9:30 layover and back by 9:30 the next morning.The 3 hour breaks on the international flights are a big plus. The 76ER has got the best of both worlds and I don't plan on moving up to the 330, 777 or 747 as they don't offer the variety.

 

[General Lee]

Just like that FDX 60 hour SYD layover, the most senior 7ER trip at DL long haul is the 99 hour Palau layover, with downed Japanese Zeros in the bay. That island was a part of "Survivor Palau", yet our crews stay at a very nice resort, and it's an up and coming resort destinations for the Japanese. That layover is a part of a 12 day trip that rotates through the MSP, SEA, and LAX bases. (Not ATL unfortunately)

Then again, any 7ER pilot can also pick up domestic turns, 2 day trips, etc. Lots of variety.

And Fam62c is correct, being senior at any airline helps. Don't expect the best trips for years, unless there are huge retirements coming.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Well, since this is a SWA thread-
That's part of the draw here- pairing parity is fairly even- I've had great schedules from day 1 on reserve-
But duly noted if I was an east coast guy commuting-
Holidays off
Weekends etc dont change-
But quality of trip?
Pretty standard-
It's premium that goes senior