Southwest Airilnes Crosses into the Gray

[FoxHunter]

If you want the facts you should just read the Bills. They are both worded about the same.

To amend the age restrictions for pilots. (Introduced in Senate)



S 65 IS

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 65

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

January 24, 2005



Mr. INHOFE (for himself, Mr. STEVENS, and Mr. BURNS) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation



A BILL

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. LIMITATION ON AGE RESTRICTIONS.

• Section 44703 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

• `(k) LIMITATION ON AGE RESTRICTIONS-

• • `(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Administrator may not, solely by reason of a person's age, if such person has not attained the person's social security retirement age as defined in section 216(l) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 416(l))--

• • • `(A) deny, defer as to, or fail to renew for, any such person an airman or medical certificate to serve as a pilot of aircraft operated by an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under this section, including the imposition of restrictions or limitations on an airman or medical certificate following initial or periodic competency or medical testing, which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person; or

• • • `(B) require an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, to terminate the employment of, or not to employ, any such person as a pilot of an aircraft operated by such air carrier, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under section 44705 of this title which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person.

• • `(2) APPLICABILITY- Nothing in paragraph (1) shall provide the basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, made by any pilot seeking re-employment by such air carrier following the pilot's previous termination or cessation of employment as mandated by section 121.383(c), title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

• • `(3) AMENDMENT OF REGULATION- Upon the enactment of this subsection, the provisions of section 121.383(c), title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this subsection) shall cease to apply and the Administrator shall take such action as is necessary to carry out this subsection.'.

 

[FoxHunter]

House Version:




HR 65 IH

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 65

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

January 4, 2005



Mr. GIBBONS introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure



A BILL

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. LIMITATION ON AGE RESTRICTIONS.

• Section 44703 of title 49, United State Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

• `(k) Limitation on Age Restrictions-

• • `(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Administrator may not, solely by reason of a person's age, if such person has not attained the person's social security retirement age as defined in section 216(l) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 416(l))--

• • • `(A) deny, defer as to, or fail to renew for, any such person an airman or medical certificate to serve as a pilot of aircraft operated by an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under this section, including the imposition of restrictions or limitations on an airman or medical certificate following initial or periodic competency or medical testing, which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person; or

• • • `(B) require an air carrier engaged in operations under such part to terminate the employment of, or not to employ, any such person as a pilot of an aircraft operated by such air carrier, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under section 44705 which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person.

• • `(2) APPLICABILITY- Nothing in paragraph (1) shall provide the basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, made by any pilot seeking re-employment by such air carrier following the pilot's previous termination or cessation of employment as mandated by section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

• • `(3) AMENDMENT OF REGULATION- Upon the enactment of this subsection, the provisions of section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this subsection) shall cease to apply and the Administrator shall take such action as is necessary to carry out this subsection.'.

 

[filejw]

67 is SS age I think.And if I read this right they have to make the med test the same for everybody..I know some 35 yr olds that are going to have a problem if they change the testing..

 

[Dizel8]

You are correct, it is 67 for those born 1960 or later. Well, at least for now!

 

[Jim Smyth]

Personally, I would rather see change to the SS rules, that allows pilots to collect at 60, since it is a federally mandated law that forces retirement.

This is what I have been talking about for many years. I personally dont want to have to fly past 60. But if I am forced out by an archaic rule then we should be eligible for SS and Medicare at that point!

 

[fredgalaxy]

The problem is that because of the age 60 rule that was in place carriers (with union contracts) were "allowed" to contribute more than what is allowed in other professions to retirement accounts (B plans). If the federal law changes the retirement age, my bet is that they will reduce the amount that employers can contribute to a pilot's retirement.

Now there are many who don't have the retirement anymore anyway so they don't care about that. However, I would think that there are still some ALPA represented pilots who would hate to see their retirement contributions being cut in order to fly beyond 60. IMHO

 

[Ty Webb]

Don't worry, kids, I hope to vacate my seat long before 60.

21 years, 3 months and 7 days, but who's counting?

 

[semperfido]

Don't worry, kids, I hope to vacate my seat long before 60.

21 years, 3 months and 7 days, but who's counting?

time flys when you are having fun

 

[filejw]

One big problem according to an F/O I just flew with is the IRS.We will no longer have the waver of big penalty's the IRS requires if you go early.Early would be 60 instead of 65 and the penalty can be up to 50%..With SWA B6 and other airlines supporting this I think it will make it this time..

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Foxhunter, thanx 4 posting the exact wording.

Now, my question is, what do they mean by SS age? Would it be 62, which is the early retirement age? Or would it be the regular age, which varies depending on when you were born, and starts at 65? If that is the cas, and I assume it is, then the FAA could mandate different retirement ages for individual pilots based on their SS elligibility age.

Also, since the wording of the two bills is ALREADY the same, I believe that improves the chances of passage of the bills, since it indicates that the House and Senate already got together prior to introducing the bills so that there won't be problems later. Most bills are different, and a House-Senate committee has to hash out the differences.

Cliff
YIP

 

[FoxHunter]

Hi!

Foxhunter, thanx 4 posting the exact wording.

Now, my question is, what do they mean by SS age? Would it be 62, which is the early retirement age? Or would it be the regular age, which varies depending on when you were born, and starts at 65? If that is the cas, and I assume it is, then the FAA could mandate different retirement ages for individual pilots based on their SS elligibility age.

Also, since the wording of the two bills is ALREADY the same, I believe that improves the chances of passage of the bills, since it indicates that the House and Senate already got together prior to introducing the bills so that there won't be problems later. Most bills are different, and a House-Senate committee has to hash out the differences.

Cliff
YIP

It be the normal full retirement age and will depend on the year you were born. I was born in October 1947 so my Social Security age is 66, for the younger people it is now 67 with the very real potential of going higher to solve the funding problem.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

michael707767:

ATC personnel are NOT required to retire at 56. If they want to stay past 56, ATC may or may not approve their request on a case-by-case basis. They have to pass an annual review after age 56. There is no maximum age beyond 56.

Cliff
YIP

 

[nimtz]

Can someone tell me why the Southwest pilot group wants age 60 repealed so bad that they want their union leading the charge in DC? I'm not making any judgements, but I'm just curious to hear from a line pilot the reasons why SWAPA has always lead the fight for this change?

 

[FoxHunter]

Can someone tell me why the Southwest pilot group wants age 60 repealed so bad that they want their union leading the charge in DC? I'm not making any judgements, but I'm just curious to hear from a line pilot the reasons why SWAPA has always lead the fight for this change?

Because ALPA is stuck in the past.

 

[Mach 80]

1. Flying airplanes at SWA is enjoyable and fun and management treats you well. It would certainly beat sitting around the house listening to your wife 7 days a week or piddling around on the golf course 5 days a week with a bunch of other has beens with their boring stories. I know a lot of pilots who thought they really would enjoy retirement but instead they are bored and miss the comraderie and fun of their airline work and are nearly going insane from to much time around the house and wife.

2. More importantly - two or 3 or more years more income and contributing to the 401k and getting profit sharing would mean a VERY large difference from 2 to 5 years of no contributions and sucking money out of the 401K 2, 3, or more years earlier. A HUGE difference.

Let's just look at 2 years more flying -- instead of taking, say $90,000/yr FROM your 401K (or converted to IRA) which would be $180,000, instead you contributed another $18,000/yr plus a company match of about $14,000, a year (total of $32,000/yr) plus the income of $190,000 each year from working......is a grand total of a net $624,000 total difference in money flow. And that was just for TWO more years...let alone 3 or more. A HUGE difference from leaving at age 60. (And I didn't add anything from profit sharing or added investments from the salary).

3. Many guys will retire at 60 anyway and some guys who will fly past age 60 would probably give away a trip or two or month...a very relaxing schedule and a nice chance to get out of the house and away from blabbermouth. (see #1).

 

[Jim Smyth]

One of our former Pilots (Bert Yetman) that is currently retired and well over the age of 60, many years ago took on the challange of trying to make a difference reguarding the age 60 rule. He still leads the charge for the PPF which is gaining massive momentum because of the current Pension problems of the industry.


http://www.ppf.org/


It had been voted on by our SWAPA Union membership over the years and always passes by a pretty good margin each time. If you think about it, almost all the Captains would want the age rule changed. If nothing more than to have a choice. About 1/3 of the FO's would want it changed because there is a percentage of them that came from the military after putting there 20 years in and are in there early 40's when they got on plus you have some younger guys that are thinking of what happens down the road when I get there. So IMO you will always have the majority siding with extending the age 60 rule.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Can't wait to see how many old geezers fall and break a hip getting out of the cockpit! <g>

 

[pilotyip]

By the time the present pilots reach age 65, the SSN retirement age will be rasied to 66+

 

[Purpledog]

If you don't want to fly till you die, just stop flying. Nobody is suggesting that you have to fly past age 60, the change in the law just gives pilots the option. The comments about boats, wives etc are childish. With your vast experience, you probably have a good feel for all that has happenedto the DB and DC plans at the legacy carriers. For a pilot to be forced into unemployment just so another can advance more rapidly makes no sense at all. The industry has always been cyclical, and will continue to be so. I think that last year was near record setting as far as total pilots hired, the problem is that the jobs were not with the traditional legacy carriers. Your time will come, be patient.

BS. If you don't think my A plan will be destroyed if I leave at 55, which I plan on doing, you're crazy. I realize the DC's have been attacked. My point is don't make me pay since you didn't plan otherwise in an unstable job. My time has come my friend, my airline makes money, lots and lots. But whose to say it will in the future. That is why I am putting away lots of my money. Go play golf and quit screwing the young guys you selfish ones.

 

[MotoX]

Extending retirement age

Sorry guys! This is all my fault! I JUST got my type!!! You can blame it all on me. Call it my luck in this industry.