Southwest Airilnes Crosses into the Gray

[Dizel8]

I agree with your point, but is there an age where it would be "appropiate", I mean do we want 75 YO flying and if not, why not?

 

[michael707767]

I agree with your point, but is there an age where it would be "appropiate", I mean do we want 75 YO flying and if not, why not?

Hey I have flown with some 58 year olds who should not be in the cockpit. The older guys/gals are definately losing a step. Sorry, but there has to be an age where we say enough is enough. There are all kinds of jobs where you can no longer work past a certain age. The police dept in my area has a mandatory retirement at 58. You can't be an air traffic controller past 56. Why is it only descrimination when its a pilot?

 

[semperfido]

they won't change it to 75. they will play it safe and make it between 62 and 65. and as far as SS is concerned, it is in enough trouble already. the ages are being raised, not lowered.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I have heard they are tying it to either SS or Medicaire age. It makes sense to tie it to Medicaire, because that way pilots can have some type of health insurance when they are forced to retire. There are lots of pilots at smaller companies, and when they retire, they have to get another job to get health care benefits, as their companies don't have any for retirees.

Safety:
The oldest pilots are statistically the safest. When you say there are 58 year olds who shouldn't be flying, you are right. There are also 55 and 50 and 45 year olds who shouldn't be flying because of their ill health, but they are able to skate through their physicals. None of that changes the fact that the oldest pilots are the safest. When I fly with my family, I want the safest pilots flying them, not someone younger and less safe, just because the older guy was forced out of the cockpit. The new law would make older pilots subject to much stricter physical requirements to keep their medical.

ALPA:
ALPA has always been for keeping Age 60, until about 6 months or so, when they changed their position. They are now supporting raising the age, I believe because so many of their union constituents are losing their retirement packages.

SWA:
SWAPA, and I believe also SWA itself as ALWAYS been against the Age 60 rule.

Younger pilots trying to get to the majors:
If you have to wait, for example, 5 years, then you have to wait. You will have 5 more years to fly, so your total years of flying at the major will be the same. Also, as stated above, there is no one holding a gun to your head and making you fly past 60 if you don't want to. If you're in a union, you can negotiate some sort of early retirement if you desire.

Age discrimination isn't fair. If we take the attitude that the Age 60 rule is OK, what is to prevent the FAA from changing it to 40? I'm over 40, and I wouldn't want to have to end my career now so some 21 year old can take my job today!

Cliff
YIP

 

[Dizel8]

But what is to prevent someone from saying age discrimination at 62-65, which it really is. If it is changed now, it probably will be changed in the future etc, so we may end up with 75 YO on the flight deck.

Either we accept, that 60 is arbitrary but it is what we can live with or we may be facing no age limit. This case now, if won, probably will set precedence and then there realistically will be no age limit.

 

[FoxHunter]

If you want the facts you should just read the Bills. They are both worded about the same.

To amend the age restrictions for pilots. (Introduced in Senate)



S 65 IS

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 65

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

January 24, 2005



Mr. INHOFE (for himself, Mr. STEVENS, and Mr. BURNS) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation



A BILL

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. LIMITATION ON AGE RESTRICTIONS.

• Section 44703 of title 49, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

• `(k) LIMITATION ON AGE RESTRICTIONS-

• • `(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Administrator may not, solely by reason of a person's age, if such person has not attained the person's social security retirement age as defined in section 216(l) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 416(l))--

• • • `(A) deny, defer as to, or fail to renew for, any such person an airman or medical certificate to serve as a pilot of aircraft operated by an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under this section, including the imposition of restrictions or limitations on an airman or medical certificate following initial or periodic competency or medical testing, which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person; or

• • • `(B) require an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, to terminate the employment of, or not to employ, any such person as a pilot of an aircraft operated by such air carrier, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under section 44705 of this title which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person.

• • `(2) APPLICABILITY- Nothing in paragraph (1) shall provide the basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, made by any pilot seeking re-employment by such air carrier following the pilot's previous termination or cessation of employment as mandated by section 121.383(c), title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

• • `(3) AMENDMENT OF REGULATION- Upon the enactment of this subsection, the provisions of section 121.383(c), title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this subsection) shall cease to apply and the Administrator shall take such action as is necessary to carry out this subsection.'.

 

[FoxHunter]

House Version:




HR 65 IH

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 65

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

January 4, 2005



Mr. GIBBONS introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure



A BILL

To amend the age restrictions for pilots.

• Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. LIMITATION ON AGE RESTRICTIONS.

• Section 44703 of title 49, United State Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

• `(k) Limitation on Age Restrictions-

• • `(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Administrator may not, solely by reason of a person's age, if such person has not attained the person's social security retirement age as defined in section 216(l) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 416(l))--

• • • `(A) deny, defer as to, or fail to renew for, any such person an airman or medical certificate to serve as a pilot of aircraft operated by an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under this section, including the imposition of restrictions or limitations on an airman or medical certificate following initial or periodic competency or medical testing, which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person; or

• • • `(B) require an air carrier engaged in operations under such part to terminate the employment of, or not to employ, any such person as a pilot of an aircraft operated by such air carrier, or take any other action by regulation or otherwise under section 44705 which has the same age discriminatory effect on any such person.

• • `(2) APPLICABILITY- Nothing in paragraph (1) shall provide the basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, made by any pilot seeking re-employment by such air carrier following the pilot's previous termination or cessation of employment as mandated by section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations.

• • `(3) AMENDMENT OF REGULATION- Upon the enactment of this subsection, the provisions of section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (as in effect on the day before the date of enactment of this subsection) shall cease to apply and the Administrator shall take such action as is necessary to carry out this subsection.'.

 

[filejw]

67 is SS age I think.And if I read this right they have to make the med test the same for everybody..I know some 35 yr olds that are going to have a problem if they change the testing..

 

[Dizel8]

You are correct, it is 67 for those born 1960 or later. Well, at least for now!

 

[Jim Smyth]

Personally, I would rather see change to the SS rules, that allows pilots to collect at 60, since it is a federally mandated law that forces retirement.

This is what I have been talking about for many years. I personally dont want to have to fly past 60. But if I am forced out by an archaic rule then we should be eligible for SS and Medicare at that point!

 

[fredgalaxy]

The problem is that because of the age 60 rule that was in place carriers (with union contracts) were "allowed" to contribute more than what is allowed in other professions to retirement accounts (B plans). If the federal law changes the retirement age, my bet is that they will reduce the amount that employers can contribute to a pilot's retirement.

Now there are many who don't have the retirement anymore anyway so they don't care about that. However, I would think that there are still some ALPA represented pilots who would hate to see their retirement contributions being cut in order to fly beyond 60. IMHO

 

[Ty Webb]

Don't worry, kids, I hope to vacate my seat long before 60.

21 years, 3 months and 7 days, but who's counting?

 

[semperfido]

Don't worry, kids, I hope to vacate my seat long before 60.

21 years, 3 months and 7 days, but who's counting?

time flys when you are having fun

 

[filejw]

One big problem according to an F/O I just flew with is the IRS.We will no longer have the waver of big penalty's the IRS requires if you go early.Early would be 60 instead of 65 and the penalty can be up to 50%..With SWA B6 and other airlines supporting this I think it will make it this time..

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Foxhunter, thanx 4 posting the exact wording.

Now, my question is, what do they mean by SS age? Would it be 62, which is the early retirement age? Or would it be the regular age, which varies depending on when you were born, and starts at 65? If that is the cas, and I assume it is, then the FAA could mandate different retirement ages for individual pilots based on their SS elligibility age.

Also, since the wording of the two bills is ALREADY the same, I believe that improves the chances of passage of the bills, since it indicates that the House and Senate already got together prior to introducing the bills so that there won't be problems later. Most bills are different, and a House-Senate committee has to hash out the differences.

Cliff
YIP