Southwest Accident May Be Indicative of Carrier-Specific Problem

[stonewall]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

 

[mar]

Pretty irresponsible

The lawyer is obviously fishing for clients and engaging in shameless speculation.

All this talk about auto-brakes....so what!!!

I'm sure the brakes worked, in auto or manually.

The better question is, how was the ANTI-SKID working that day.

But that will take time, until then, this all just journalistic masturbation.

 

[satpak77]

What do y'all think of this:

Flew into Huntington one night with a very young 727 FDX captain. Short runway, bad wx. very low vis. He flat out told me, "okay, bra, I'm gonna fly this ILS one dot low the whole way down. It'll put us exactly where I wanna be on the runway." Sounded good to me. The dude flew a great approach exactly like he said he was gonna fly it, and we landed about 1000' feet down and stopped in plenty o' time. I liked it, since most military pilots like to land in the first 500' anyway. How do my civvie bros feel about something like the approach above? Just curious.

"needles centered" is the only way to properly fly the ILS, and this is the only way to guarantee obstruction clearance. Flown that way, you WILL land 1000 feet down. You didn't fly the sim at the FDX interview one dot low did you?

didnt think so

 

[satpak77]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

Magnum please tell me you are joking

 

[Creamer]

Well, he didn't F it up. Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?

Flying one dot low takes away all allowances for error and we all make errors. Especially at 0600 after flying all night! This practice will kill somebody eventually.

 

[HalinTexas]

You better be glad that CVR's can't be used against you for criminal or civil action. If you briefed that approach that way and f'd it up, you'd be in court or jail for the rest of your natural life.

Unbelievably stupid. Ever heard of LLWS?

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Would you rather fly it as pubished, or do the SMART thing and fly it like he did?"


Flying one dot low is the smart thing to do on an at-minimums ILS approach??

 

[atafan]

"Ok brah", Just fly the approach they way it has been designed tested and certified for, needles centered up.

That's the way civies are supposed to be doing it. As for your captain that invents his own techniques, we'll be reading about him someday.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Always amazes me when people think they are smarter than the decades of experts that went before them and engineered all this stuff.

I think it is an inherent need to feel that they are just a little smarter than the rest of us. Ego, all ego.

 

[Boeingman]

What do y'all think of this:

Flew into Huntington one night with a very young 727 FDX captain. Short runway, bad wx. very low vis. He flat out told me, "okay, bra, I'm gonna fly this ILS one dot low the whole way down. It'll put us exactly where I wanna be on the runway." Sounded good to me. The dude flew a great approach exactly like he said he was gonna fly it, and we landed about 1000' feet down and stopped in plenty o' time. I liked it, since most military pilots like to land in the first 500' anyway. How do my civvie bros feel about something like the approach above? Just curious.

I think both of you will be a statistic one day. Not a question of if, but when.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

"No, I was shaving with a Mach 3, and when you shave with a Mach 3, theres no time to think! If you think, your dead!

Let me guess, when you got to your hotel room, you showered, dried off and played some volleyball too....ICEMAN.

 

[Babylon]

Yes there is a problem at SWA

Look I fly the 737-700 as well. I didn't know that SWA doesn't train pilots on using the Autobrakes or Autothrottles but if that's the case then they definitely have a problem.

1) The training involved with using Autobrakes and Autothrottles is minimal. Pilots can EASILY fly aircraft that have them and don't - it would be nothing short of idiotic to not use autothrottles or autobrakes because "you're not trained in them". I suspect it has more to do with the cost of maintaining - SWA is cheap.

2) SWA does not train to use the VNAV option for the same reason - some of their jets don't have VNAV and they don't want to "confuse the pilots". Another GREAT safety tool.

3) If SWA typically teaches pilots to hand fly all approaches then it has even more serious problems. What would be the rationale for that?

4) You might be able to beat the autobrakes with manual brakes but it often won't work out like that and the autobrakes in general are a much safer option (max/3 autobrakes is expressly for a situation like this one). Heck you can beat the auto spoilers with manual spoilers often as well but that's not a reason to do manual spoiler landings.

5) SWA in general teaches a rush rush atmosphere. Anyone who has been flying for a while realizes this. It works great most of the time but it definitely takes a bite in the safety - usually not enough to cause problems but sometimes it does.

 

[Ty Webb]

Look I fly the 737-700 as well. I didn't know that SWA doesn't train pilots on using the Autobrakes or Autothrottles but if that's the case then they definitely have a problem.

No generalization is worth a damn, including this one.

(With apologies to Mark Twain)

 

[PacoPollo]

Some of the airports that SW prefer to fly out of are inherently unsafe and should be closed. Midway is one of them.

But Midway fits their business model...

 

[Mach 80]

Babylon,

Well, it looks like the ambulance chaser has succesfully baited you. There is a big difference from a runway having nil braking at the last 25% when reported as poor versus another accident in which a pilot was way too fast, but go ahead and swallow what the money chasing non-pilot lawyer says hook line and sinker!!

Actually, to correct you, SWA has VNAV on ALL the airplanes but won't let the pilots use them for what they consider SAFETY reasons. They have a philosphical opinion that by having the pilots manually descend the airplane, it FORCES them to be in the loop of what the plane is doing (versus "Oh, apparently it's time to descend" at VNAV airlines). It wasn't a matter of cost or "confusing" the pilots. If it was based on cost, obviously VNAV would save money for more accurate descents. It's just a philosophy. They had the same philosophy for LNAV (Remember AA turning to the wrong fix and into a mountain South America just with the push of a button? And there have been other cases). Changes in ATC forced them to go with the LNAV. You may disagree with the philosophy but so be it, but it wasn't to keep from "confusing" the pilots or to "save" money.

As far as you "hand flying approaches" you obviously are ignorant and inexperienced of the benefits and abilities of the Heads Up Guidance System.

SW doesn't teach rushing. Are you crazy? Who would teach that??

Just because they don't WASTE time like pilots at other carriers trying to find any excuse to milk another minute of pay doesn't mean they rush. Certainly there is a difference between rushing and being efficient. Some of the BS statements on here are incredibily stupid almost as bad as the TV reporters and often simply show jealousy towards a succesful competitor and not missing any chance to bash them. It's dissapoining to see that in the piloting world.

This accident will boil down to braking action in the last quarter of the runway being far less good then what was reported.