SouthernAir

[dojetdriver]

The reason AA lost that DC-10 over Chicago had nothing to do with loss of thrust or drag. It had everything to do with their training. Their training specified that when you lose an engine, you're IMMIDEATELY to fly v2. They were approx 30-40 knots above v2 when they lost their engine- when the PF pulled up the nose to slow to v2, he stalled the wing.

Edited. Dang, ATR beat me to it!

You mean besides a faulty MX procedure as well as a shift change of mechanics during the engine swap coupled with the fact that when the engine came off it severed the hydraulic lines causing the leading edge devices to retract, giving it less lift.

Did AA, or any other DC-10 operator for that matter, have any training dealing with that exact scenario? I would think that somebody who puts the MF'n-10 on their info would know that.

The sad part is the mechanic that was held liable ended up committing suicide shortly after. We pilots only get one chance to kill people, mechanics get to kill people till they are caught. I heard that from a mechanic.

 

[Diesel]

AA was allowed by the DC to change it's mx procedures with or without the knowledge of DC. They used procedures that they had learned from the years of working on the DC-10. There wouldn't have had a problem but the shift change and a forklift that had a slight hydraulic leak ended up causing the engine to shift and put uneven stress on the bolt and mount.

 

[AAflyer]

The system's purpose is for the engine to shear off at random points in time? You lost me there.....



You're right, AA had a DC-10 loose an engine off the wing....with less than stellar results. And El Al lost one on a Classic 747 which promptly took out it's neighboring engine, causing it to crash into an apartment building in Amsterdam.



I'm going to say the loss of thrust, and drag from a whole engine mounted on the outbard of the wing might have some slight effect on flight.


The reason AA lost that DC-10 over Chicago had nothing to do with loss of thrust or drag. It had everything to do with their training. Their training specified that when you lose an engine, you're IMMIDEATELY to fly v2. They were approx 30-40 knots above v2 when they lost their engine- when the PF pulled up the nose to slow to v2, he stalled the wing.

Don't forget- transport category aircraft are certified to fly with a positive rate of climb even with the loss of an engine. Yes, even if it falls off. (Which, if you think about it, would lessen the drag coefficient)

Don't remember the El Al flight, but it seems that that was just bad luck, to have one engine fly into another.

The hydraulics were also severed causing the leading edge devices to slide back to a stowed position. That is what brought about the dramatic increase in the stall speed of one wing. In essence one wing flying with an engine producing max thrust, and another wing stalled with no engine.

The crew assumed the engine had failed, not fallen off. There was no indication in the cockpit that would indicate your engine has fallen off.

It would have been no problem to climb at V2 if the engine had failed and everything else had worked. Not sure if that V2 is accurate. The guys at the school house said it was V2+10. Will have to ask around, as it has been awhile since we were given the whole story and presentation.

Regards

AA

 

[gringo]

The real problem was that that original designers of the airplane never considered that particular scenario- i.e., an engine falling off with the slats extended (I knew I was missing something when I first posted). Nobody considered what would happen when all hydraulic pressure was lost- the slats would retract. No one considered what would happen if all 3 hydraulic lines were simultaneously cut, as well (UAL232). These things just happen- the fact that mainteance had a shift change or a forklift was leaking or Mrs Smith brough warm chocolate chip cookies only helped the problem along, but had there been safety blocks in the hydraulic lines, all we would have heard about was how an airplane lost another engine.

Humans design airplaines, and therefore are far from perfect. Even the new ones rolling off the factory floors right now have inherent design problems that aren't detectable, even with all the computer modeling available. Sooner or later, someone has to die or get seriously hurt for these problems to be made known.

As a side note, I didn't know that the mainteneance guy was held responsible, nor that he committed suicide. That's a shame, because in reality, there were no real culprits. Just plain, dumb, bad luck.

 

[ironspud]

Bump...uh...I mean, burp.

 

[Fins Up]

Anyone know what the minimum hours requirements are and if they do any sort of military conversion? I've tried calling HR to ask but noone ever answers the phone. Does anyone really work there? (This ain't bashing - just kidding around.)

 

[bombinha]

The system's purpose is for the engine to shear off at random points in time? You lost me there.....



You're right, AA had a DC-10 loose an engine off the wing....with less than stellar results. And El Al lost one on a Classic 747 which promptly took out it's neighboring engine, causing it to crash into an apartment building in Amsterdam.



I'm going to say the loss of thrust, and drag from a whole engine mounted on the outbard of the wing might have some slight effect on flight.



727....does it matter?

I fly old Boeings too, I'm not slamming Kalitta....I just can't follow the logic of your posts (every single one of them).

Hey T-gates I think you should do better research about fallen engines.
On american airlines case the mechanics invented (created) a new way to remove and replace engines not approved by the manufacturer and using a forklift.
FAA was to blame for that to allow mechanics that never had a degree create a new and revolutionary method that all engineers after so much schooling didn't think about it.
About the other one they lost they did lost one engine and also pneumatics that are used for slats and rolled and got uncontrolled after they selected flaps 1 w/o slats and not becuase they lost 2 engines on same side.
I don't know of any 747 classic came down for mechanical problmes other than bad operation or bad maintenance. Tell me one if you know.
And Kalitta has a nice maintenance a lot better than MESA and Mountain Air Cargo that a flew for if you really wanna know.
Plus nobody has classics better equiped than us.
I only can agree that PW engines are bad and that might be the reason PW is going to produce parts for GE engines from now on as they can't sale their bad products.

 

[1800rvr]

Hello from ANC.

This is a reply to several people who sent me some PM's on Southern Air hiring.

There is a class going on at this minute in MIA at Aeroservice with appx. 10 people.

The best way to get hired is to get your 747 type from Aeroservice and that alone will raise your application to the Chief Pilots office.

Southern hires allot of people from Aeroservice and if you have a clean background and the usual drug testing and FAA records check and some international experience, your most likely on the inside list for a job offer.

Right now the vast quanity of hired crews were all typed heavy jet transport guys with lots of international experience.

Allot of crews from the former Southern Air Transport, and a large mix of furloughed crews from Atlas/Polar, Evergreen, Kalitta, Air Atlanta, Emery and some TWA guys.

Another class of appx. 10 starts next week.

Again, I am not a sunshine pump, so take it for what it is worth, but right now with all the carnage in the passenger sector, air freight is not a bad place to be.

Southern is not the best, but it is far from the worst.

Best wishes.


1800rvr

 

[freightdogfred]

He stalled the wing because when the engine went over the top of the wing, the slats retracted on that wing due to hydraulic lines being cut.

Airplanes do not stall due to loss of an engine, or retracting slats...

AOA and insufficient airspeed causes a stall. That DC-10 pilot was flying "by the numbers" so when the slats retracted, that wing stalled.

Next time some old timer says "add a few knots fer momma and the kids" don't discount it.

 

[1800rvr]

Southern Air class and interview info.

Hello from Miami.

Here is a reply to some PM's I have received for infor on Southern Air interviews and class dates.....................here we go!

Southern Air started a class on March 21st with 12 people in it; all are students at Aeroservice getting there 747 types and/or FE ratings.

The students that have heavy jet time and international experience will get first dibs on most of the job offers.

The interview - be yourself------------very low stress and laid back.

Be prepared to explain the concepts of RVSM, RNP navigation rules in Europe and Asia, explain the ETP and where it is computed, read and explain a METAR and TAF, be able to make a ICAO/N. Atlantic/N. Pacific position report.

Also, be prepared for a B-737 sim ride. Nothing special, just a TKO, direct to a holding pattern entry, maybe a steep turn and a ILS to a landing.

The next aircraft, #5 is in heavy check as I type this and is expected to go to China Air and fly Shanghai-Anchorage and the lower 48 and return to Shanghai.

Aircraft #6 is about to be purchased and is enroute to a heavy check station
for inspection.

I think that is about it. Not a bad place to be right now with all the bloodletting in the passenger sector; again, not the best and far from the worst.

Best wishes to all the readers.


1800rvr.

 

[heilhaavir]

1800: will the #5 airplane be flying for China Air or Air China Cargo?

 

[Bat21]

Kalita Air Junkyard

Sounds like Connie is a mentor to someone...

Kalitta Air Junkyard is an understatement for this man's outfit. He does not care for his crewmembers, neither the aircraft they fly. And I speak from experience.

As previously mentioned by another pilot, it's not the best but by far it is the worst. I think Kalitta fits that position.

All the best.
Bat21

 

[weasel_lips]

The company puts crews in 5 star hotels everywhere we go, and full meal catering on all flights. All crewmembers are home based and everyone gets airline tickets to trip start destination and return to home base and 50% deadhead pay for the flight. You can keep all your airlines and hotel miles.

5 Star everywhere we go? I have to call BS on that one 1800RVR.

Since when is that filthy Hampton Inn in ATL or the Wingate in DFW a five star or the aiport Ramada in China we use????

 

[metrodriver]

The AA DC10 incident happened because someone thought it would be easier to take the engine and the pylon of the wing. The way they did it resulted in a few stressed bolts that on that fatal flight broke.
El Al lost the first engine because of cracked shear bolts. That engine rolled along the wing knocking the other one of too. The resulting damage and loss of hydraulics were just a little too much.
Not very long after that Kalitta dropped an engine in lake Michigan. Also broken shear bolts.

 

[hkgorbust]

Not very long after that Kalitta dropped an engine in lake Michigan. Also broken shear bolts.

14 years is not very long? Maybe not for a tortoise!

Anyway, the Kalitta deal was not the same. A P&W overhauled exhaust case was installed about 100 hours prior to the event. The new case broke at the aft attach point and the engine dropped onto the forward mount, which separated by design. A section of the broken case was still attached to the aft mount.

 

[John Galt]

5 Star everywhere we go? I have to call BS on that one 1800RVR.

Since when is that filthy Hampton Inn in ATL or the Wingate in DFW a five star or the aiport Ramada in China we use????

Five Stars? That might be a bit of a stretch. Especially in ATL and DFW. I can honestly say I have only been in 2 “close to” 5 star hotels. HKG and DBX. We no longer stay at the ATL Hampton. For the most part the hotels are good, clean, quiet places. My only gripe with the DFW hotel is: NO BAR!

For those not on the property some interesting info. The SAI flight crews formed up an informal “Crew Group”. They started a “dialogue” with the company with the primary focus (ouch) to improve QOL issues. Especially the 20 day issue. Pay was backburner because everyone knew how the owner felt about that issue. The talks were a bit rocky at first, but actually went quite well after that.

What surprised all of us was the outcome. Right now there is an agreement in concept on many issues. But basically it goes for 5 years. Pay increase of 5% upon acceptance and another at year 3. Per Diem from $2 to $2.25 at year 2 and to $2.50 at year 4. As always, the devil will be in the details when this is all incorporated in the GOM (which we will vote on). As far as the 20 day issue goes: it did not change, but a “rig” system was devised that gets us to 70 hours if we are out the whole 20 days (more efficient scheduling). Guarantee is still 60.

Focus pay is still a bit better per hour, but SAI pays on a 30 day cycle and not 60. Unlike Focus SAI pays actual block flown and not the scheduled wheels up to wheels down. Home basing is here to stay, so we get flown to work. True: first year no DH pay (and it does add up), however Per Diem starts/ends with the commute.

Candidates to left seat can expect a tighter “screening” process in the future. I think that right now the junior Captain in training is a Sep or Oct 05 hire.

I have not heard that the Jan/Feb classes were PFT. I don’t think so. SAI learned their lesson the hard way and no longer “types”. In the past, PFT candidates were a 50/50 proposition. SAI had 2. One passed IOE and one didn’t.

Can you stay out more than 20 days? I flunked bidding once. It happens. Just turn your underpants inside out.

All in all, we were surprised at the company’s willingness to work with the Crew Group. But when you lose 5 well qualified Captains in a week to a competitor I guess the bells start going off.

The “sunshine pump”, Mr. 1800 (just joking) has pretty well summed up the rest.

 

[xspud]

lifestyle in MIA question

John Galt speaks! Seems like you should be working for "Giant"...

Anyway, I have a totally unrelated question for you MIA folks. Please feel free to direct me to a more appropriate thread if you know of one.

I'm thinking about moving to MIA but I'm worried about the traffic. Not so much for myself (working the frtdog sked) but my wife isn't too excited about that part of South FL life. Any suggestions?

Also, anybody have any advice about liveaboard slips/marinas in South Florida? Key Largo works, too.

 

[Dream2fly]

Does anyone have information about the new hire training for Southern Air? I would like to get how long, how many days a week and more. Thank you so much for any help that I can get.

Jimmy

 

[1800rvr]

Hello, sorry about the late reply; just got in from Shanghai.

1 week of indoc (40 hours) in Miami at Aeroservice building with SA instructors, 2 weeks (80 hours) ground school on a/c systems, followed by a systems final.

1 week of CPT cockpit trainer time appx. 12 hours, followed by 6 sim sessions in the 747 simulator, w/ a checkride, followed by a LOFT, and then assignment to a line IOE check airman for enroute IOE in the aircraft.

Expect to be in Miami appx.45 days. best wishes; see you on the line. Remember, SA is not the best and far from the worst operator............so take it for what it is worth to you.


1800rvr.

 

[weasel_lips]

Expect to be in Miami appx.45 days. best wishes; see you on the line. Remember, SA is not the best and far from the worst operator............so take it for what it is worth to you.


1800rvr.

Who exactly is the worst?

SA is far from the best and close to the worst would be more accurate.

 

[mrvmo]

When you say close to the worst, what catagory are you speaking of? If you are comparing us to FEDEX then yes it sucks here..........your right. If you are comparing us to ATLAS or POLAR or WORLD..........yea I would agree that they pretty much got us beat in most of the important things that we as pilots want (not by that much though).......other than a quick upgrade (9 months). But if you compare SA to the likes of Kalitta, Gemini, Traidwinds, Evergreen, or ATI I think SA compares pretty well, and believe it or not they are actually improving. Granted this place stunk pretty bad when I started a few years back, but the newly formed association in unison with the company are making changes for the better(pay raise, QOL improvements.) It's a step in the right direction, which is far better than a step in the wrong one which we are seeing industry wide. If you can tolerate being gone an average of 16 days a month on the road straight (Sometimes more and sometimes less...that is the average) it's not a bad pace to be. If you need anymore info let me know. Please do not succumb to the folks that don't know. I don't recall ANYBODY saying that SA was the best place to work.

 

[Kikuchiyo]

mrvmo and 1800rvr: I recognize that there's no "typical" schedule (anymore than there's anything like a typical schedule in military airlift). So instead, could you tell us what your last trip(s) looked like? Where to, how long on the ground at each stop, did you deadhead on a company jet or pax airline anywhere? Thanks,

 

[nfinity8]

a quick ?

I know that Southern is homebased and isn't CASS, but do they have jumpseat privileges with other 121 carriers? Just curious...

 

[ironspud]

I know that Southern is homebased and isn't CASS, but do they have jumpseat privileges with other 121 carriers? Just curious...

No.....

 

[ironspud]

When you say close to the worst, what catagory are you speaking of? If you are comparing us to FEDEX then yes it sucks here..........your right. If you are comparing us to ATLAS or POLAR or WORLD..........yea I would agree that they pretty much got us beat in most of the important things that we as pilots want (not by that much though).......other than a quick upgrade (9 months). But if you compare SA to the likes of Kalitta, Gemini, Traidwinds, Evergreen, or ATI I think SA compares pretty well, and believe it or not they are actually improving. Granted this place stunk pretty bad when I started a few years back, but the newly formed association in unison with the company are making changes for the better(pay raise, QOL improvements.) It's a step in the right direction, which is far better than a step in the wrong one which we are seeing industry wide. If you can tolerate being gone an average of 16 days a month on the road straight (Sometimes more and sometimes less...that is the average) it's not a bad pace to be. If you need anymore info let me know. Please do not succumb to the folks that don't know. I don't recall ANYBODY saying that SA was the best place to work.

MRVMO:

What you say is not "entirely" true. As a side benefit, some of our "younger" captains get to sleep with fat Russian .....women(?). (OK..OK..perks are perks).

 

[nfinity8]

No.....

Thanks for the reply ironspud. Do you think there is any chance of Southern getting jumpseat privileges with anyone any time soon? I know most of the cargo airlines have aggreements...that's why it was a little surprising that Southern doesn't have any jumpseat privileges. I'm considering applying there and you have been helpfull with your info. Thanks again.

 

[Iron Man]

I resemble that remark!

 

[ironspud]

Thanks for the reply ironspud. Do you think there is any chance of Southern getting jumpseat privileges with anyone any time soon? I know most of the cargo airlines have aggreements...that's why it was a little surprising that Southern doesn't have any jumpseat privileges. I'm considering applying there and you have been helpfull with your info. Thanks again.

Jeez, how do I put this "politely"?

Probably no chance of that happening at Southern Air. I commuted for over 14 years at my last "real" airline job - on my own company - and hated it.

SA now provides me a guaranteed seat to get to work and back home. Every time. I love it.

If we go CASS, or reciprocal - we will most definitely lose that. I can think of noone here at SA that wants reciprocal jump seats or CASS. Surprisingly enough - even management.

Home basing is wonderful.

Oh! Incidently: Apply here. You will work hard, but with great crews.

 

[embpic1]

For you Kalitta bashers, give it a break. Every company has its pros and cons. I actually like working here. I am traveling the world and having a blast flying the king of Boeings.

With regard to the engine in Lake Michigan incident, it was a manufacturer's defect in the part. It was not a failure of Kalitta mx. I have seen our engine overhaul shop in Oscoda and I was impressed. Connie has really done a nice job with it. We also overhaul engines for other carriers.

 

[ironspud]

For you Kalitta bashers, give it a break. Every company has its pros and cons. I actually like working here. I am traveling the world and having a blast flying the king of Boeings.

With regard to the engine in Lake Michigan incident, it was a manufacturer's defect in the part. It was not a failure of Kalitta mx. I have seen our engine overhaul shop in Oscoda and I was impressed. Connie has really done a nice job with it. We also overhaul engines for other carriers.

Good for you. Tell Adnan "I love you, man".