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Sorry Colgan, but you will not be as lucky as Mesaba

Flyer1015

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Pinnacle was the bail out plan for many at Mesaba. Ask around, and you will see that the whole one seniority list idea was first heavily pushed through from the Mesaba side. SE and the Pinnacle union took it to avoid future potential "whipsaw" but the reality is they are all pushover, and Mesaba was running things from the get go. The result was that every single Mesaba pilot losing a Saab job was able to come over to a Pinnacle RJ, and almost all Captains were able to retain Captain seats. No Mesaba furloughs occured last year as a result of the parking of the Saabs.

From the memo:

we’ve carefully examined the Q400 contract, and
have found that the payments being received from United/Continental are
not covering the expenses to operate the Q400s, resulting in financial
losses. Like our CRJ-900 9E contract, the performance of the Q400 CPA will only worsen as this fleet ages and expenses increase. In addition, the
profitability of the United/Continental Saab pro-rate contracts has
deteriorated as fuel and maintenance expenses have increased. The losses incurred on this operation are not sustainable.

The Saab fleet is primed for parking, and the Q fleet may follow. There are two ways to fix this: one is internal, the other external. The internal things include fuel, mx, and labor. You can't change fuel and maintenance, but you can change labor costs. I, as a CRJ-200 pilot, will NOT take a paycut to make turboprop flying more profitable for Colgan/Mesaba! The external is if United/Continental agree to better financial terms and rates. That's most likely not happening, they can probably get away with the same costs at another carrier like Commutair. The Saab fleet will most likely be gone, and the pilots will have nowhere to go. The staffing situation has been corrected for the most part, and no longer will Pinnacle be the welfare of Mesaba or Colgan pilots. Once the Saab fleet is parked, we will furlough. Worse case would be if we lose the United/Continental Q flying, there would be even more furloughs then.

When that happens, the contract would force seniority in order (inverse) for layoffs. But one of the reasons we are in a world of hurt is because of increased training costs from everyone and their mother bidding across certificates. If you furlough in inverse order, you would actually end up furloughing Pinnacle pilots at JFK along with Colgan FOs. It is NOT acceptable for Pinnacle pilots to take yet another hit for someone else's losses! I don't care if it's one list or not.

Best case scenario would be furloughing out of seniority order, allowing those positions to be furloughed in a fashion that would be the case if there were still three separate lists. Once 9E declares BK, they can make a good case to file motion 1113e and force us concessions. On top of that, if they explain to the judge the re-training costs associated with furloughing the bottom only, and then having to retrain all Colgan captains and many FOs to other jet positions, it would cost the company too much and available cash flow can't afford it. The judge could easily grant the company the right to furlough out of seniority order, and furlough only those on the Saabs.

Menke's memo also states "We had assumed that the arbitrator’s ruling last year would put fences in place between the three pilot groups in order to protect the company from exceedingly high levels of training activity until the operations were combined. However, the award did not include such fences." The fact that Bloch didn't include those fences of each group to itself until the integration/merger was complete has really hurt this company. 9 people (total, each airlines merger committee) have completely wrecked the future of this company. These pilots could not work out their differences, wouldn't budge, and all agreed to settle upon binding arbitration which ended up going South, real fast!

ALPA's decisions of pushing through one-list as quickly as they did has really screwed up this company. The lack of "jump across certificate" fences from the Bloch award has cost this company dearly, with pilots being awarded positions that aren't even ready yet with the merger and integration. Compass was sold off the same time as Mesaba, yet, TSA Holdings has all 3 separate: GoJets, TSA, and Compass. I will not go into the history of GoJets for this topic, but the end result is all three are union carriers, and all 3 are well aware of potential whipsaw issues. None have one list! This weakened economy of 2010-2012 was NOT the time to fight for a one list to prevent a whipsaw! GoJets, TSA, and Compass are all making money. Today, the same cannot be said for Pinnacle. The integration plans and the SLI with its Bloch-isms will bankrupt this company.

So thank you, ALPA, and your fearless merger committee memebers for forcing us to be where we are today! We should have waited on the idea of one-list until the economy turned around, until our conditions improved. But Mesaba needed to make sure their pilots had a place to go, and they got the 9E union to string along (which back then was mostly pushoever anyway).

VOTE NO ON THE UPCOMING 5% WAGE CONCESSION PACKAGE! Don't let those lifers in the union tell you anything otherwise. It's insane that they are considering roadshows to explain a concessionary package! There is absolutely NO reason to vote yes on ANY wage cuts. Never in airline history has there been a case where one certain percentage of wage cuts as concessions was able to keep an airline out of bankruptcy. They all filed later at some point, and employees went in for round #2 of paycuts. JUST ASK COMAIR PILOTS!


VOTE NO! And thank you ALPA for screwing this place up with your pre-mature decision to push through one list and decision to use binding arbitration.
 
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Flyer1015

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9E FO's have been decimated by the XJ Saab CA's, and now the entire company is being brought down by the paracitic Colgan flying. Looks like it's going to be a fun 2012!

The Colgan flying is Menke's point #3. Point #2 is still the seniority list from Bloch without any fences on jumps across certificates. That one has really hurt them financially, and makes no sense to allow before the merger even happened. Hell, we didn't even have a fenced operation back when 11-09 came out!
 

bri5150

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Flyer,

So with your furlough out of seniority idea, are you willing to fall on the sword if United/Continental plays ball with new rates in BK and Delta cuts 200 flying? In that case, 90% of the furloughs would be 9E and 10% Mesaba.
 

silver02ex

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Flyer,

So with your furlough out of seniority idea, are you willing to fall on the sword if United/Continental plays ball with new rates in BK and Delta cuts 200 flying? In that case, 90% of the furloughs would be 9E and 10% Mesaba.


Who said anything about Delta cutting any 200 flying? The Colgan and Pinnacle's 900 flying is the one losing money. Lets pretend we never merged the list. Pinnacle would lose 16 airplanes ( since those 900 are not making money) We would still be short staffed. Furlough wouldn't even be in the picture for Pinnacle. IMO if we have the 3 seperate list, Mesaba would be downgrading and Furlough with the loss of the Saab, along with Colgan if Pinnacle wants to get rid of Colgan's Saab and the Q. Pinnacle was still upgrading and hiring new pilots before the list was merged. It would have been much more simple if the list was seperated like it was since 2007 when Pinnacle bought Colgan. Look at how many quarters Pinnacle has been making money, even with it was just Pinnacle an Colgan as a seperated list.
 
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bri5150

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Who said anything about Delta cutting any 200 flying? The Colgan and Pinnacle's 900 flying is the one losing money. Lets pretend we never merged the list. Pinnacle would lose 16 airplanes ( since those 900 are not making money) We would still be short staffed. Furlough wouldn't even be in the picture for Pinnacle. IMO if we have the 3 seperate list, Mesaba would be downgrading and Furlough with the loss of the Saab, along with Colgan if Pinnacle wants to get rid of Colgan's Saab and the Q. Pinnacle was still upgrading and hiring new pilots before the list was merged. It would have been much more simple if the list was seperated like it was since 2007 when Pinnacle bought Colgan. Look at how many quarters Pinnacle has been making money, even with it was just Pinnacle an Colgan as a seperated list.

You don't think Delta is going to pull 200's from Pinnacle if we go chapter 11? They are looking for any opening in any area to get rid of those things. I don't think they will dump them all, but I am sure they will dump at least 20 of them. In fact, my personal opinion is 9E will negotiate to lose 20 of them to get a higher rate on the rest. Who knows? I am just making it up, but is seems like something that could happen. We can just sit here and wait for stuff to go down as usual.
 

silver02ex

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You don't think Delta is going to pull 200's from Pinnacle if we go chapter 11? They are looking for any opening in any area to get rid of those things. I don't think they will dump them all, but I am sure they will dump at least 20 of them. In fact, my personal opinion is 9E will negotiate to lose 20 of them to get a higher rate on the rest. Who knows? I am just making it up, but is seems like something that could happen. We can just sit here and wait for stuff to go down as usual.


You don't get what I'm saying.... Pinnacle was making money before they bought Mesaba. Once again, look at how many quarters Pinnacle report a profit, when it was just Pinnacle and Colgan seperated, even when Colgan was operating the Q. Chapter 11 wasn't even consider until it became one list. So if Chapter 11 wasn't consider then, why would Delta cut Pinnacle's 200 if we were making a profit? If the list was seperated, Mesaba would probably be downgrading and furlough due the parking of the Saab. However those guy's who are on the Saab is now jumping on the Pinnacle side. Colgan Q pilots are jumping to Pinnacle 200's in JFK. Look at all that trainning cost. which is one of the reason there's talk of Chapter 11.
 
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CoATP

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You don't get what I'm saying.... Pinnacle was making money before they bought Mesaba. Once again, look at how many quarters Pinnacle report a profit, when it was just Pinnacle and Colgan seperated, even when Colgan was operating the Q. Chapter 11 wasn't even consider until it became one list. So if Chapter 11 wasn't consider then, why would Delta cut Pinnacle's 200 if we were making a profit? If the list was seperated, Mesaba would probably be downgrading and furlough due the parking of the Saab. However those guy's who are on the Saab is now jumping on the Pinnacle side. Colgan Q pilots are jumping to Pinnacle 200's in JFK. Look at all that trainning cost. which is one of the reason there's talk of Chapter 11.

Two words .. "old contact" That's why Pinacle made money. So we have to go back to that, unwind the integrated lists. Furlough as needed from those lists (in seniority order) and try again.
 

Twisted Mind

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When Phil was running PNCL it was a giant shell game were Phil was hiding losses. Now the new management team is tasked with cleaning up the mess. The disaster was going to happen with or without Mesaba. Mesaba just accelerated the time line. Flyer you can waist as much time as you want complaining about the past bit you can not change what happened.
 

Kaman

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Two words .. "old contact" That's why Pinacle made money. So we have to go back to that, unwind the integrated lists. Furlough as needed from those lists (in seniority order) and try again.

A very elegant and logical solution...9e 120 or so CRJ-200s and XJ's 40 or so 900s
9L...0 Qs and 0 Saab's
Net result 1/3 of pilots getting a pink slip and that's assuming Delta wants all the 50-seaters, of which I am guessing 40 or so gone, so another 400 pilots furloughed. Leaving Pinnacle Airlines with their original 80-90 crjs, except this time NO contract and 5 years to recapitalize the company because after 2017, the party is really over.
Maybe an asset/equity sale? Hostile takeover? It's all up for grabs...
 

silver02ex

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All this talk about Delta's cutting Pinnacle's 200. Who's to say Delta is going after Pinnacle's 200? Why not go after Chautauqua 50 seaters, or ASA or Skywest CRJ. What about the remaining Comair's 50 seater?
 

ace6453

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All this talk about Delta's cutting Pinnacle's 200. Who's to say Delta is going after Pinnacle's 200? Why not go after Chautauqua 50 seaters, or ASA or Skywest CRJ. What about the remaining Comair's 50 seater?
Well, Delta has raped comair, I believe chatauqua's contract is up shortly, they have taken 200's from ASA, don't know about skywest. Wouldn't be surprised to see them go after some from Pinnacle.
 

Flyer1015

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Furloughing out of seniority is a none-starter...

Not when your airline declares bankruptcy and files motion 1113e.


The disaster was going to happen with or without Mesaba.
No way. The disaster happened because of purchasing and integrating Mesaba, a carrier going from 90+ airplanes down to 60. Those who would have otherwise been downgraded and furloughed instead found free seats at Pinnacle at a huge expense to Pinnacle. It would have been much cheaper for Pinnacle to upgrade their own and train their own. Adding to the fire was Colgan's integration. Since we purchased them in 2007, they were both run ok as separate companies. The disaster has been directly caused by the slow integration process, but mostly due to the one seniority list, the Bloch conditions and lack of airline fence, and the huge training events that then ensued.
 

sinkrate

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Why it all happenned is irrelevant at this point. At this point there is nothing the pilots can do to save the day, but if they balk at the inevitable they will screw themselves royally. If it goes to bk


-the Agreement goes out the window - including scope and seniority list rights. The company will demonstrste to a judge that to save the company the scope provisions must go so they can sell Colgan. Seniority list rights will also get trashed - they must furlough the pilots that are in the seats that leave the property or they won't have the cash to continue


-if the TP staff doesn't get cheaper than Commute air the D-8's will go there. The Commute air guys have been seeing smoke from their management about PCL.


-if the CRJ 900 staff doesn't get cheaper than GO Jets guess where they are going.


-DAL may use the opportunity to park more 50 seaters. A good chunk of PCL's200's are doing essential air service routes that weren't profitable with 30 seat Saab's.


If the big cheese can get the big players to agree to a work out outside of BK the pilots better not screw up the deal. They will be looking at -a small pay cut - longer seat locks (not fences) - and some work rule give backs. They will also know the numbers that will get fuloughed. Push it into BK and your contract and pay rates will get gutted - after half of you are on the street. Any body remember what Anderson did to Champion after he sold them?
 

Raskal

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Why it all happenned is irrelevant at this point. At this point there is nothing the pilots can do to save the day, but if they balk at the inevitable they will screw themselves royally. If it goes to bk


-the Agreement goes out the window - including scope and seniority list rights. The company will demonstrste to a judge that to save the company the scope provisions must go so they can sell Colgan. Seniority list rights will also get trashed - they must furlough the pilots that are in the seats that leave the property or they won't have the cash to continue


-if the TP staff doesn't get cheaper than Commute air the D-8's will go there. The Commute air guys have been seeing smoke from their management about PCL.


-if the CRJ 900 staff doesn't get cheaper than GO Jets guess where they are going.


-DAL may use the opportunity to park more 50 seaters. A good chunk of PCL's200's are doing essential air service routes that weren't profitable with 30 seat Saab's.


If the big cheese can get the big players to agree to a work out outside of BK the pilots better not screw up the deal. They will be looking at -a small pay cut - longer seat locks (not fences) - and some work rule give backs. They will also know the numbers that will get fuloughed. Push it into BK and your contract and pay rates will get gutted - after half of you are on the street. Any body remember what Anderson did to Champion after he sold them?

I guess it's BK then. I'd rather go sell cars then give back an inch of this crap contract. Sorry lifers, the job ain't worth it anymore.
 

PCL_128

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Not when your airline declares bankruptcy and files motion 1113e.

Whether a judge can legally abrogate seniority rights is highly questionable, even under 1113(e) or (c). It's never happened. What is more likely is that the judge would offset the training costs by allowing even further wage reductions or productivity improvements. Your dream of furloughing people out of seniority order (which is absolutely horrible, by the way) isn't likely to happen.
 

Flyer1015

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Your dream of furloughing people out of seniority order (which is absolutely horrible, by the way) isn't likely to happen.
The concept of "seniority" (as I knew it) died the day the Bloch award/list came out.
 

dashtrash

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The 200 flying being profitable for PNCL does not mean it is for DAL. The Q400 flying for UAL is bad for PNCL because Colgan underbid just to get the contract. DAL would love to have an airplane that carries 30% more customers for 40% less fuel burn. The 200 pilots have more to worry about in the long term.
 
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