Sorry Colgan, but you will not be as lucky as Mesaba

[Flyer1015]

If we can keep enough hate going on this board and stay completely divided, the bankruptcy will somehow magically go away and flyer will get his upgrade! You see, bitching on web boards at your own pilots + ? = Epic WIN!

Upgrade? Fuggetboutit!

Next move is to park all Colgan Saabs, and those 2007-8 9L Captains will then displace more of our 9E Captains at DTW/JFK and furlough the bottom of the list. Pinnacle will displace all out, with just the quota 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 at that point. Most junior 9E Captain would then be about a Aug 2006 DOH.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Lets see, you brought over a contract and a shrinking fleet that forced our guys to be downgraded and displaced. Sorry, I'd rather keep our contract and fight for our TA#2 than take the current crap we're in. I do like how you (and certain select other XJ pilots) still think you brought the contract into this merger as if it means something. This contract has actually decreased my QOL when I can't waive certain rights.

Upgrade? Fuggetboutit!

Next move is to park all Colgan Saabs, and those 2007-8 9L Captains will then displace more of our 9E Captains at DTW/JFK and furlough the bottom of the list. Pinnacle will displace all out, with just the quota 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 at that point. Most junior 9E Captain would then be about a Aug 2006 DOH.

You know what, I was mistaken, it was clear you guys had the eye on the prize and contract negotiations well in hand. It was especially clear to all of us when we'd sit down to talk about contract improvements and your guys (subcommittee anyway) would spend that time bitching about your last couple trips (half the time you picked up in open time) and then slam clicking at the end of the night. Maybe this downgrade, JCBA, and ISL finally did what no 9E rep could do, focus and unify your group.

Unfortunately, and predictably, its years late and it will do nothing but annihilate this new pilot group and it's contract gains because you still can't accept that- like it or not- we are in this together.

Seriously though, Colgan guys turn. Let's bring this ship into the rocks like an Italian. Worse case we completely blow the next few months and go down like glue sniffing idiots. After all, when the only thing you know to do is bitch all damn day and night you HAVE to create drama, otherwise you might move forward.

Common, someone other than flyer? No? Nobody? Common boys, this is how we solve our problems. We fight amongst ourselves + ? = Epic Win! Everyone, sing along if you know the words.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Let's hear it now boys, this ship is going down and I want to see all of you stepping over each other and clawing your way out.

You know, there was a day when pilots stood up, acted like men, and raised the flag of war against management. I see only the hollow shadows of men in front of me now, with no hope of redemption, true delight blazing in their eyes as they curse each other and hope for their misfortune. You all are the future of this "profession", the distorted and muted echos of once great men resound in what we do here and now. I want to see you fight each other and stab each other until there is nothing left. When they write the books for flying the line volume 3, let it read, "here was pounded in the last nail in the coffin, as each man and woman turned on each other with hate a bitterness". You are your own worse enemy, and you write your own future.

 

[suupah]

Let's hear it now boys, this ship is going down and I want to see all of you stepping over each other and clawing your way out.

You know, there was a day when pilots stood up, acted like men, and raised the flag of war against management. I see only the hollow shadows of men in front of me now, with no hope of redemption, true delight blazing in their eyes as they curse each other and hope for their misfortune. You all are the future of this "profession", the distorted and muted echos of once great men resound in what we do here and now. I want to see you fight each other and stab each other until there is nothing left. When they write the books for flying the line volume 3, let it read, "here was pounded in the last nail in the coffin, as each man and woman turned on each other with hate a bitterness". You are your own worse enemy, and you write your own future.

the only venom i see is from the same small group of pinnacle pilots that were spewing the hate throughout the ISL negotiations and arbitration.

 

[silver02ex]

Most junior 9E Captain would then be about a Aug 2006 DOH.

Hey that's me! So you're telling me there's a chance

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Let's hear it now boys, this ship is going down and I want to see all of you stepping over each other and clawing your way out.

You know, there was a day when pilots stood up, acted like men, and raised the flag of war against management. I see only the hollow shadows of men in front of me now, with no hope of redemption, true delight blazing in their eyes as they curse each other and hope for their misfortune. You all are the future of this "profession", the distorted and muted echos of once great men resound in what we do here and now. I want to see you fight each other and stab each other until there is nothing left. When they write the books for flying the line volume 3, let it read, "here was pounded in the last nail in the coffin, as each man and woman turned on each other with hate a bitterness". You are your own worse enemy, and you write your own future.

Is that from, "Lord of the Rings"? I swear Aragorn used this speech to bolster his warriors before the battle at Helms Deep.

Aside from that, thank you gentlemen for some fine reading and entertainment. Alas, I had forgotten what it was like to be glued to Flightinfo every day, basking in hate and vinegar through our contract in '04 and the bankruptcy/concessionary contract of a few years ago. But allow me, a potential lifer at the black and yellow to suggest that you... just let it go. Other than the vote that we'll likely have put in front of us, and the stack of resumes you have at home, there's very little you can do to fix your situation. We from XJ (Pinnacle North) didn't want to be purchased. Believe me. We really didn't want to be purchased by Pinnacle. Some of us still wake up in the wee hours in a cold sweat. But, we were. And we deal with it. And we will deal with the 5% pay cut. And we will deal with our next bankruptcy.

Flyer, while I don't believe your rants are productive by any means, I do solute your passion and your ability to write in coherent sentences. Just remember that we ALL have been screwed in this industry one way or another. If you will allow me to indulge... "I should be at the majors by now. Who spends almost 12 years at the regionals?" You know what? When I look back, there was very little I could do to get to the majors. My path didn't take me there. Now I'm not saying surrender to resignation. But just moderately paddle as you ride the wave of your airline career. Plus, what was that other guy saying about a pilot shortage?

MM a.k.a. Obi-Wan

 

[jynxyjericho]

Is that from, "Lord of the Rings"? I swear Aragorn used this speech to bolster his warriors before the battle at Helms Deep.

*sigh* They have a cave troll.

 

[Smarta$$]

So... Pinnacle negotiated a contract with D to operate 900s, at a loss. Pinnacle, negotiated a contract to fly Q400s at a loss through its Colgan subsidiary. Pinnacle agreed to purchase Mesaba knowing their fleet was shrinking and that their pilot CBA most likely required a single seniority list. Pinnacle made SEVERAL unsustainable and disasterous business decissions.

And yet, you blame Mesaba and Colgan pilots for the decisions made by YOUR management.

Flyer... Seriously, you are a broken record. Even if you can point to some valid mistakes made, what is the point? What is your blaming everyone else but your management and the pinnacle pilots (for demanding an unreasonable integration leading to a disasterous Bloch ruling) actually going to do?

You spend (waste) way to much of your life thinking about and worrying about what has already happened, and who you can blame outside of pinnacle airlines. 90% of what is wrong with the current pinnacle airlines, is a direct result of PINNACLE airlines.

 

[Smarta$$]

Lets see, you brought over a contract and a shrinking fleet that forced our guys to be downgraded and displaced. Sorry, I'd rather keep our contract and fight for our TA#2 than take the current crap we're in. I do like how you (and certain select other XJ pilots) still think you brought the contract into this merger as if it means something. This contract has actually decreased my QOL when I can't waive certain rights.

Do you have a F&*^*^% Delorean and a flux capacitor? Even if you did, can you get YOUR CEO to change his mind about buying Mesaba?

If not, shut the F&%$**& up!

 

[Smarta$$]

Upgrade? Fuggetboutit!

Next move is to park all Colgan Saabs, and those 2007-8 9L Captains will then displace more of our 9E Captains at DTW/JFK and furlough the bottom of the list. Pinnacle will displace all out, with just the quota 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 at that point. Most junior 9E Captain would then be about a Aug 2006 DOH.

You were never entitled to a 3 year upgrade.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

*sigh* They have a cave troll.

Ha ha! Love it.

 

[Flyer1015]

You were never entitled to a 3 year upgrade.

No I wasn't, and at the 4.5 year mark, I still never felt entitled. Still feels a little wrong to see our March 07 DOH Captains getting bumped by 2008 DOH pilots at Colgan.

Do you have a F&*^*^% Delorean and a flux capacitor? Even if you did, can you get YOUR CEO to change his mind about buying Mesaba?

If not, shut the F&%$**& up!

Buying Mesaba wasn't a problem. Combining the whole operation into one was the problem. We could have just as easily gone the TSA Holdings style, and kept all three running separately, mostly at a profit. But the union pushed through one list, one contract to the company. That was a pre-mature move. Live to fight another day when it comes to preventing whipsaw.

 

[bri5150]

No I wasn't, and at the 4.5 year mark, I still never felt entitled. Still feels a little wrong to see our March 07 DOH Captains getting bumped by 2008 DOH pilots at Colgan.


Buying Mesaba wasn't a problem. Combining the whole operation into one was the problem. We could have just as easily gone the TSA Holdings style, and kept all three running separately, mostly at a profit. But the union pushed through one list, one contract to the company. That was a pre-mature move. Live to fight another day when it comes to preventing whipsaw.

Hind sight is great, huh? Were you saying this before ALPA pushed for a single list? We needed one list so we wouldn't be whipsawed against each other like Pinnacle had already been done with Colgan. Don't forget the management at the time was the one that pit you guys against Colgan. There is no way anyone could have known the way the list would have been put together. Don't forget that Pinnacle was short and Mesaba was heavy so it made sense to combine the list so the staffing could get evened out (general statement, please no comments from the peanut gallery).

The big mistake for training purposes was having vacancies on 11-09. It should have been displacement for Saab guys and that's it. Get that almost done and start the staffing movement on 11-10. That mistake has nothing to do with ALPA, the contract, or any pilot group. That was a company decision to add vacancies and it is costing a lot more money than it should have.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hind sight is great, huh? Were you saying this before ALPA pushed for a single list? We needed one list so we wouldn't be whipsawed against each other like Pinnacle had already been done with Colgan. Don't forget the management at the time was the one that pit you guys against Colgan. There is no way anyone could have known the way the list would have been put together. Don't forget that Pinnacle was short and Mesaba was heavy so it made sense to combine the list so the staffing could get evened out (general statement, please no comments from the peanut gallery).

The big mistake for training purposes was having vacancies on 11-09. It should have been displacement for Saab guys and that's it. Get that almost done and start the staffing movement on 11-10. That mistake has nothing to do with ALPA, the contract, or any pilot group. That was a company decision to add vacancies and it is costing a lot more money than it should have.

bri, great post. Actually I was against it when I first heard about it. I honestly thought we would have just been business as usual as three separate entities under Pinnacle holdings, just like the current TSA/GoJets/Compass under TS Holdings. I was very surprised to hear the idea of one list come out as soon as it did by ALPA. As for 11-09, couldn't agree more. Pure displacement bid for only the Saabs, and then staffing movement in 11-10.

 

[PCL_128]

We could have just as easily gone the TSA Holdings style, and kept all three running separately

You mean the giant whipsaw? The one where TSA pilots are getting furloughed while Compass and GoJet hire? The one where the TSA pilots couldn't get any decent contract improvements, because they had to focus on protecting their flying as much as possible? Yeah, that's a great idea.

 

[centralpilot]

You mean the giant whipsaw? The one where TSA pilots are getting furloughed while Compass and GoJet hire? The one where the TSA pilots couldn't get any decent contract improvements, because they had to focus on protecting their flying as much as possible? Yeah, that's a great idea.

At least someone gets it.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[bri5150]

bri, great post. Actually I was against it when I first heard about it. I honestly thought we would have just been business as usual as three separate entities under Pinnacle holdings, just like the current TSA/GoJets/Compass under TS Holdings. I was very surprised to hear the idea of one list come out as soon as it did by ALPA. As for 11-09, couldn't agree more. Pure displacement bid for only the Saabs, and then staffing movement in 11-10.

If that is the truth, then you are in the minority I believe. I remember thinking, wow, the company capitulated quick on that (the decision to go the route of the ISL), but where we differ is that I think almost everyone was for it. You are okay with Colgan getting the Q400's with the money that Pinnacle made? I don't believe that. If we were all seperate and the 10 700's from ASA came up, you would have been okay with Mesaba getting them because they already had the infrastructure and pilots to fly them even though we are all under the same holding company? How about when the CRJ 200 ASA is up in 2017? Would you be okay if Delta wanted to park most of those, Pinnacle would furlough, and you would have no rights to fly any Colgan or Mesaba aircraft? You would be okay with all of that? There would be no complaining on FI.com because that is what you wanted?

 

[Flyer1015]

You mean the giant whipsaw? The one where TSA pilots are getting furloughed while Compass and GoJet hire? The one where the TSA pilots couldn't get any decent contract improvements, because they had to focus on protecting their flying as much as possible? Yeah, that's a great idea.

You mean the chest thumpin Dario who tried to call TSA's bluff and tell them to go blow smoke elsewhere? And if TSA is still furloughing, it's the dead market of the 50 seaters. The 70+ seaters are the more viable market, and GoJets and Compass are making money. Plus, TSA only has about 20 or so more on furlough, and even they will have to hire soon. Like I said, live to fight whipsaw another day. None of us were up to gain (or lose) any flying from mainline anytime soon, except the Mesaba Saabs that were being parked. We could have fought that battle at a time when the economy improved.

 

[Flyer1015]

If that is the truth, then you are in the minority I believe. I remember thinking, wow, the company capitulated quick on that (the decision to go the route of the ISL), but where we differ is that I think almost everyone was for it. You are okay with Colgan getting the Q400's with the money that Pinnacle made? I don't believe that. If we were all seperate and the 10 700's from ASA came up, you would have been okay with Mesaba getting them because they already had the infrastructure and pilots to fly them even though we are all under the same holding company? How about when the CRJ 200 ASA is up in 2017? Would you be okay if Delta wanted to park most of those, Pinnacle would furlough, and you would have no rights to fly any Colgan or Mesaba aircraft? You would be okay with all of that? There would be no complaining on FI.com because that is what you wanted?

For the initial time being, I would be okay with it. I was hired after the Jan 2007 Colgan purchase anyway, so I knew they were growing at our expense. I'm not saying we should have stayed all separate for years and years, but at least initially, to ride out the weak economy, we should have just left things as status quo. Everybody separate. And actually, as selfish as this may sound, I was also against one list because I knew the XJ Saab fleet was being parked, and that 9E pilots would have to take the burder on that. In the end, thats exactly what happened, but there's no changing the past. We should have weathered out the economic storm, which doesn't look like it's improving anytime soon.

 

[jynxyjericho]

If that is the truth, then you are in the minority I believe. I remember thinking, wow, the company capitulated quick on that (the decision to go the route of the ISL), but where we differ is that I think almost everyone was for it. You are okay with Colgan getting the Q400's with the money that Pinnacle made? I don't believe that. If we were all seperate and the 10 700's from ASA came up, you would have been okay with Mesaba getting them because they already had the infrastructure and pilots to fly them even though we are all under the same holding company? How about when the CRJ 200 ASA is up in 2017? Would you be okay if Delta wanted to park most of those, Pinnacle would furlough, and you would have no rights to fly any Colgan or Mesaba aircraft? You would be okay with all of that? There would be no complaining on FI.com because that is what you wanted?

Well the reality was when Pinnacle bought us and decided to tie us together with Colgan (no idea why flyer is pretending there would be 3 companies like TSA, however, going forward with what really happened) they, Pinnacle, automatically gave the Colgan guys our contract, check our scope language. Not the JCBA, the concessionary one we were under (worth more than the old pinnacle contract and more than failed-TA1 from pinnacle).The JCBA delayed a lot of those contract stipulations and it gave them a timeframe to bring the 9E 9L guys up to our contract level past the signing of the JCBA (company won huge). Bringing our furloughs back and flying those 700's would have been nice, 9E would have been so screwed they would have had to park the -900's in ATL (because they lose money anyway it seems). Q's would have still dragged us down and we'd probably still be in a similar situation with -900's going away at 9E and Q's going away over here. They were going to try and move the aircraft slowly over to pinnacle (contractually only a % per year) but I don't know how they planned to man the airplanes, so that likely would have been delayed. The merger, from the beginning, had signs of tunnel vision but we all focused in on stuff we could control, the JCBA and ISL. I think Flyer has had a reality schism where he is actually in control, it's best if you ignore it.

Could of would of should of. Time to move forward. Not Flyer of course, he's stuck in the past and eventually, a couple years from now, he'll be tell us how we should have handled this situation. First though, the rest of us have to work on the present, including you Brian

 

[xjhawk]

good post. I like it. Lets move forward. The first step in that is the big ignore for flyer! I have rehashed a lot of bad things from the past which I thought I had put behind me (some from past contracts-bankruptcies-and of course the SLI) but that is unhealthy and the would have could haves does not do any of us any good. Flyer is in his own reality and does not know the facts of the events that occurred in the last year or what is going on now-as evident by him blaming mesaba pilots for this mess. He fails to see that there are more Mesaba captains and FO's that could very well be in worse shape today in our current scenario than if we would have just stayed independent and lost the SAabs. But like I said, that is neither here nor there.

I do not know all the union guys and have had my differences with them in the past but I will say that they are working hard and dealing with the situation at hand in our best interest as a pilot group. We might not all agree with every single decision they make, but they deserve our support.

 

[Flyer1015]

as evident by him blaming mesaba pilots for this mess.

I don't blame Mesaba pilots for this mess. Your group had no say in being bought out. My blame lies on those who truly bungled up this whole integration, and that includes those in management and select certain merger committee members who were in over their heads. Other than that, I dont blame Mesaba pilots or Colgan pilots. No one asked to be in this situation.

 

[Smarta$$]

No I wasn't, and at the 4.5 year mark, I still never felt entitled. Still feels a little wrong to see our March 07 DOH Captains getting bumped by 2008 DOH pilots at Colgan.


Buying Mesaba wasn't a problem. Combining the whole operation into one was the problem. We could have just as easily gone the TSA Holdings style, and kept all three running separately, mostly at a profit. But the union pushed through one list, one contract to the company. That was a pre-mature move. Live to fight another day when it comes to preventing whipsaw.

Lets consider another one of your genious ideas...

Before Pinnacle, I was furloughed from Trans States... goatjet was hiring at the very same time...

 

[suupah]

7% requested now from teh company.

 

[bri5150]

7% requested now from teh company.

Partial truth. Oh how I like FI.com. Yes, they want 7% now, but only for a year instead of the 5% paycut indefinitely. True, if we go bankrupt it won't matter.

 

[suupah]

Partial truth. Oh how I like FI.com. Yes, they want 7% now, but only for a year instead of the 5% paycut indefinitely. True, if we go bankrupt it won't matter.

i assume bkrptcy. i think only a fool doesn't. IM(most)HO

 

[Raskal]

i assume bkrptcy. i think only a fool doesn't. IM(most)HO

Yep. Anyone who believes the "7% but only for a year" crap will help anything is, without question, a fool.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ouch!