Somebody's Watching Us

[ClassG]

By Metrodriver:

"I agree with chprplt with being scared of the (fanatical?) religiousness of people like timebuilder."



I just came back and reread this entire thread (3 pages worth) and the only posts that seem at all fanatical to me are the ones by Chprplt and Metrodriver. The rest seem to me to be just open discussion of religious beliefs and histrorical interpretations of the Bible.

No one seems to be preaching except those two or three who are obviously threatened by the mere presence of God in our aviation community. No one's going to try and convert you here - I just read back over the ENTIRE thread and I STILL don't feel like I need to go to church. But, I definitely learned a couple things and also would like to thank Timebuilder for caring enough to share his thoughts with those of us who are on a life-long journey to make sense out what we're all doing here.


Do Metrodriver or Chprplt have anything constructive, educational, introspective, philosophical to add to the discussion? Or will it be attack after attack on those who do?

 

[prodigal]

metrodriver. . .

Glad to hear you at least had some exposure to the Bible, in elementary school. That also reflects your level of discourse on the topic.
I understand that you are averse to belief or conversion. But how can you reject that which you do not know first hand?
Just as an intellectual excersize, why don't you read some of the Bible, pref. New Testament, if for no other reason so you can know firsthand what it's all about? Then at least you will have more credibility on the subject.
As Timebuilder also stated, most believers have come to that stage over a long road that led through many other beliefs, or no belief at all (which oddly, is indeed a belief of its own). We've been where you are now, my friend.
Peace.

 

[dmspilot00]

It baffles me how someone can listen to the radio....hate Eminem...yell about how horrible he is...and continue "listening".

People actually do that???????

That explains this thread. If you anti-religious people who wanted the thread removed had just kept your comments to yourself, the post would be on the 5th page of the forum by now. How about that.

"Most people know how to say nothing, few know when."

 

[jumppilot]

That explains this thread. If you anti-religious people who wanted the thread removed had just kept your comments to yourself, the post would be on the 5th page of the forum by now. How about that.

LOL! Yeah, it is now 3 pages long!!!

My bet, it will make it to 5 pages, about the same length of some of Archer's posts, before all is said and done...What do you think?

 

[John Wayne]

I think that TIMEBUILDER has a point when he says that it is our job as believers to spread the gospel. That is the directive given to us in the Word. I like his approach. Inform, educate, provide the real Christian perspective and be available to those who seek to know more. That is the heart of God right there. Not in your face but available.
For those who don't see that let me submit this... Jesus never forced people to think the way he did, never made them believe in him. He educated and left the people to decide for themselves who and what he was. Some folks got it and some did'nt and some would'nt (insert seed parable here)
I have always been somewhat leery of proclaiming my faith. Mostly because of the reactions like those that I see illustrated here by those who would label me a "whack job" or a zelot. Aviation is simply too small a community to be asking for a label like that.
However, I would say that after reading these posts and offering my own fuzzy view of things, I Should try to make myself more available to those around me who might be seeking to know more about what the God thing is all about. Not nessesarily here on the board,(would not want to offend) but just in general. Thanks TIMEBUILDER, and others, for setting an example of what walking it out looks like for real.
I gotta go blow the dust off of my bible now. it has been awhile. I think I need to do some study'un to keep up with Timebuilder : )

 

[chperplt]

chperplt: Why is it that people who actually come out and talk about their faith in God called "Bible Thumpers", while those who don't care to listen to it do not recieve a label. If you found the cure for cancer would you tell others about it?

Iceman21

I not once said that people who talk about their faith in god are called bible thumpers. I did say that one individual, who is attempting to throw his faith down my throat, is a bible thumper. His comments are in line with the views of many skinhead and neo nazi organizations.

ClassG

Reread the thread for the third time... Tell me how my view, that religion and faith, as powerful as it may be to you, should not be left for church or your home? Do you think that there should be prayer in school? Should the government make it's decisions based on the bible?

Is it ok in your mind for people to go door to door trying to convert (or save) everyone?

I like his approach. Inform, educate, provide the real Christian perspective and be available to those who seek to know more. That is the heart of God right there. Not in your face but available.

That's funny.... The real Christian perspective... Does it drive you crazy that Jesus was born and died Jewish?

 

[brianjohn]

jumppilot-
I think you misunderstood what he was saying. I think he was saying that it should by now be tucked away in the archives where nobody is even looking at it anymore.

 

[brianjohn]

chperplt-
Didn't I see you once with Johny Knoxville on some show on MTV?

 

[jumppilot]

jumppilot-
I think you misunderstood what he was saying. I think he was saying that it should by now be tucked away in the archives where nobody is even looking at it anymore.

Brianjohn,

I understood what he meant...I just agree with him. It is funny that so many people who dislike this topic, and would want to see it disappear keep voicing their opinion and bumping it to the top!...


So here it goes.....BUMP!

Personally, I don't care one way or the other..I'm just laughing at all this right now....It was an innocent post and people need to relax, REGARDLESS of what their beliefs are....And unfortunately this won't happen for awhile, no matter what people belive, they all believe they are right (when it comes to topics like this).

 

[brianjohn]

jumppilot-
My bad.
What on earth does "bump" mean anyway?

 

[Dieterly]

While we have been having this dicussion, thousands of children died from starvation, toddlers were raped, priests were "helping" altar (sp) boys. How about if "god" pay attention to the important stuff, instead beeing to busy causing sandstorms in Iraq?

 

[jumppilot]

jumppilot-
My bad.
What on earth does "bump" mean anyway?

Bump can mean two things.

If someone gives good post, you can simply reply "Bump" which means "good post".

It also means bumping the post to the top of the board...Like if you post a question, and no on answers, you can bump it to the top again by replying to your own post.

Note: I didn't put BUMP in my last post to agree/disagree with it, merely pointing out the fact that my post will bump this worn-out topic to the top again.

Edit: I just noticed my post number...hehehe

 

[bunnyfufu]

in my opinion, everything Timebuilder has said on the subject supports the idea that religion is nothing more than a well-developed set of excuses and circular logic... none of it can be proven or disproven because any argument against it can be countered by another argument which can't be proven or disproven... it's pointless to discuss, and it pisses me off to no end that people waste their lives believing in this crap. the only good that comes from religion is the set of morals...

 

[ClassG]

Bunnyfufu:

Besides the tone of your post, I agree with most of what you said here:

You can't logically or factually prove anything about religion except that Faith Exists - And you can't change that with all of the logic in the world.

Even if the ONLY good thing religion ever did was provide a moral code by which we might exist, (relatively) peacefully and in good order, Is THAT so bad? Could we have survived this long without it?

I often wonder whether the legal system would have developed as it has without the influence of religion and it's moral code. Would we really be better off without this influence?
(Please, let's not get into a discussion of how lawyers have perverted the system.)

I guess I just still don't understand why some people are so solidly opposed to a public discusion of religion. It's not much different than discussing art and culture. There's really nothing to oppose. You either get it or you don't.

 

[de727ups]

"and it pisses me off to no end that people waste their lives believing in this crap"

Not sure what it is that pisses you off but we don't think it's crap. A non-believer who isn't interested is never gonna "get it" but those of us who are close to God understand just fine.

My opinion....I don't think God wants to be proven...that's why it's a circular argument. Without faith you can't believe in God. If God were somehow scientifically proven you wouldn't need the faith aspect to believe....that's against the philosophy of free choice that's in the bible and the center of the Christian faith.

I don't bring up my personal views at work. I've flown with guys who are anti-Christian and it's no big deal. If we get to the point in conversation where I talk about my youth ministry work and they change the subject....I realize we don't need to go there. I don't push it from my perspective.

Sounds like some of you feel Christians are pushing themselves on you....it shouldn't be that way....or maybe you are being overly sensitive. God seems to be a big part of our society and, as it is a free country, one must come to the conclusion that most of the people want it that way.

Some think we shouldn't talk about God around here since it's a sensitive subject....none of us are going to change the others minds or opinions, I'd say. Perhaps the "God" threads should say "God" in the subject area and then those who don't want to go there don't need to be offended.

Peace

 

[metrodriver]

quote:
Sounds like some of you feel Christians are pushing themselves on you....it shouldn't be that way....or maybe you are being overly sensitive. .

DE727UPS, that's exactly what happens and that's why I said to keep it for yourself, like the sex and SS and bank account numbers.
A few examples of where it happened: In de jacuzzi at a fitness club, at the swimming pool, at work, in the waiting area at an airport. When you say not to be interested these people just keep going on and on and on saying how bad a person I am and how terribly I'm lost. Please, I just want to relax.
I like your approach a lot better. If someone says no, change the subject. Nowhere in the world have I seen people so pushy on their beliefs as in the US, simply because in a lot of places it can be highly dangerous.

quote:
as it is a free country
Exactly, freedom of religion, which also means freedom of not having a religion, or freedom from religion.

I think some people thought I was posting flamebait. Not so. I was merely trying to explain how quite a lot of people have different feelings. The result is that you get a bunch of bible passages thrown at you, exactly the pushing of religion I wrote a few sentences above.
And am I overly sensitive? Don't think so. It's the same feeling as all the telemarketing calls you receive daily (unless your number is blocked); after a while it gets mighty irritating.

 

[Dieterly]

At least we can agree on that one day we will all die, and that we all will end up 6 feet under with worms eating our brains for breakfast.

 

[chperplt]

Didn't I see you once with Johny Knoxville on some show on MTV?

brianjohn

You're real slick there buddy.. Calling me a jackas@ without actually calling me a jackas@. I bet that took you all day to think up.

Seriously now.. what's wrong? Does the truth bother you? It's ok to pray to him and call him your savior, as long as you pretend he wasn't Jewish? Is that what you're trying to say? Are you an anti-Semite?

I guess since only the chosen people go to heaven, and the bible says the Jews are the chosen people, everyone else gets to enjoy other accommodations.

 

[Typhoon1244]

At least we can agree on that one day we will all die, and that we all will end up 6 feet under with worms eating our brains for breakfast.

Not me! Crematorium, here I come, baby!

Am I the only person who thinks burying dead people is a little sick? What, are we saving them for later?

 

[Timebuilder]

I guess since only the chosen people go to heaven, and the bible says the Jews are the chosen people, everyone else gets to enjoy other accommodations.

Close.

While the Jews are the "chosen people" of the Old Testatment, they have to trust Christ, a Jewish carpenter while he was here, in order to be saved. What the Bible does say is that you have to trust Him, or perish. Jew OR gentile.

I still don't understand how a vigorous discussion, with questions being asked and answered, is somehow "pushing religion down someone's throat". If a reference to a particular passage helps to answer your question, why should it not be a part of the discussion?

Sometimes a person's objections to Christ are based on having incorrect information. Like a POH, the Bible is the only source when you want to be correct about this.

Keep this going if you like, and don't if you won't. I just came back from a two day trip last night, and I'm leaving for another trip today until Monday. On Sunday, you might want to take some time to just think a little about what Easter really means. If you want to learn, I'm here. If not, you might fly with me and never guess what I believe.

 

[dsee8driver]

Typhoon1244 said
Not me! Crematorium, here I come, baby!

Am I the only person who thinks burying dead people is a little sick? What, are we saving them for later?


I agree with you 110% Ty. I want to be cremated also. My wife says she wants me to cryogenically freeze her for future revival. I told her she better hope I go first cause if she goes I'm collecting insurance, toasting her little azz and taking out a new make and model.

PS. The night of that discussion I almost had to sleep in the couch.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I want to be cremated also. My wife says she wants me to cryogenically freeze her for future revival.

Right, she might have stuff for you to do then!

...if she goes I'm collecting insurance, toasting her little azz and taking out a new make and model. The night of that discussion I almost had to sleep in the couch.

Almost?

 

[brianjohn]

chperplt-
Sorry about that smug remark, BUT...
The way I see it, (I believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, going to heaven, etc...) is that if I'm WRONG, and your right, chperplt, then I have nothing to lose. HOWEVER, if I'm RIGHT, and your wrong, well, you have some problems coming.
You know what though? I HONESTLY don't want it to happen that way for you. I do have enough respect for you to realize that you are very uncomfortable talking about this. Why that is, I don't know. I can't change your heart. Pray for you, yes.
Let's talk about something else then.
Peace my friend

 

[chperplt]

HOWEVER, if I'm RIGHT, and your wrong, well, you have some problems coming. I HONESTLY don't want it to happen that way for you

What problems would that be? Jesus was Jewish and the Jewish people are the chosen people. It's says so in the same book you and Timebuilder like to quote from.

Your statement above is where I get heart burn from. You want to pray for me... You don't want "it" to happen that way for me. I assume by "it", you mean go to hell. First of all, Jewish people can't go to hell. It's says so in the bible. The chosen few only go to heaven. So don't waste your energy praying for me. I think it is I who need to pray for you.

Think what you want to think, believe what you want to believe, just do it by yourself or with people of similar interest. This thread was started because I didn't think this topic belongs on a public message board anymore than it belongs in public schools. We can all agree to disagree.

I've not once tried to convince you why your religion is flawed, and I don't appreciate all the misinterpreted scripture trying to convince me why my religion is wrong.

 

[chperplt]

While the Jews are the "chosen people" of the Old Testatment, they have to trust Christ, a Jewish carpenter while he was here, in order to be saved.What the Bible does say is that you have to trust Him, or perish. Jew OR gentile.

Timebuilder,

So you are admitting that you worship a Jew?

Sometimes a person's objections to Christ are based on having incorrect information. Like a POH, the Bible is the only source when you want to be correct about this.

This is so true, which makes me wonder why on one hand you site loads of scripture to get your point across, but on the other hand admit that your religion revolves around a man of Jewish decent. Jesus was the son of god, right? That must mean than god is Jewish as well... right? How does this fact encompass your religious beliefs?

Your bible says that Jesus was the King of the Jews. Did Mary and Joseph convert on the way to Bethlehem and if so to what since there was no Christians before Christ started preaching.

 

[Timebuilder]

Hope you have some Maalox...

Greetings from Scottsdale, Arizona. This is one of my best trips yet. I did some hiking today, and I'll do some more tomorrow. Great weather, nice people. I saw Phoenix from the top of a mountain today. Neat. Those of you who have no interest in this topic are invited to click out and move on.

What problems would that be? Jesus was Jewish and the Jewish people are the chosen people. It's says so in the same book you and Timebuilder like to quote from.

I'll try and be brief here.

I'm not sure about all of the concern about the Jews here. Although they were "chosen", they rejected both the Law and the Messiah. Conforming to the Law was the first covenant, and they failed to keep the Law. The second covenant was made "live and in person" by the Messiah, Jesus. The Jews are going nowhere, except for the few that place their trust in Jesus. This IS according to the Bible. If you have a passage that suggests to you a contradiction of this, share it here or send me a PM.

First of all, Jewish people can't go to hell. It's says so in the bible. The chosen few only go to heaven. So don't waste your energy praying for me. I think it is I who need to pray for you.

Wrong. The Jewish people only THINK they are not going to hell. The new testament, inspired by the God of Abraham, clearly explains that ONLY those who trust in the Messiah will be saved from the eternal extinction of the spirit. Remember, Jesus is the very same God-the-son that made the covenant with Abraham. Just because the largest portion of the Jewish community doesn't belive it, it doesn't make it right. This shouldn't be a surprise, since many believed Christ WAS the Messiah, and the priests had Him killed because he threatened their position and power.

I've not once tried to convince you why your religion is flawed, and I don't appreciate all the misinterpreted scripture trying to convince me why my religion is wrong.

If you believe in the words of the Torah, then you had better get with the Messiah's program. Talk to Jews for Jesus. They have all of the info you will need, and can show you line by line in the Torah why Jesus is who He says he is. Shalom!

So you are admitting that you worship a Jew?

Jesus was a Jew while he had His earthly ministry. After all, He inspired all of the writing in the Torah. Neither He, nor God the Father, nor God the Holy Spirit are [IJews[/I]. Jews are the descendants of Abram (whom He called Israel) and were "chosen" by God to be the first recipients of His discipline and blessing. The Gentiles inherited this blessing through belief in the Messiah of the Old testatment scripture, Jesus. More than a Man, Jesus is God the Son. It is He, as a person of the triune God, who is worthy of faith and praise, not the identity of His flesh on earth.

...which makes me wonder why on one hand you site loads of scripture to get your point across, but on the other hand admit that your religion revolves around a man of Jewish decent.

Loads of scripture? I answer a few questions and it's LOADS of scripture? Oy, veh! (sorry )

Actually, Christianity revloves around the worship of God, through the person of Christ. Christ did not teach His disciples to practice Jewish customs, although those of them that were so raised, including himself, continued to live as a memeber of the community that HE himself had established with Abram. He existed before Abram was born, and the Jews as a people existed. He exists eternally, so how could he have been a Jew before there WERE Jews? Answer, He is God, and not just one of the people who He chose as the first recipients of the covenant.

Jesus was the son of god, right? That must mean than god is Jewish as well... right? How does this fact encompass your religious beliefs?

No, see above. He could have made the covenant with any people, and could have come to minister to them as the Messiah as a member of any race or creed. His choice is not an indicator that His identity is the same as the people he chose for the covenant.


Once again, I try not to take up space here for this without a question or erroneous statement from someone else.

Anyone can feel free to PM me, and I'll try and help you to understand what this means.

 

[chperplt]

I'm not sure about all of the concern about the Jews here. Although they were "chosen", they rejected both the Law and the Messiah. Conforming to the Law was the first covenant, and they failed to keep the Law. The second covenant was made "live and in person" by the Messiah, Jesus. The Jews are going nowhere, except for the few that place their trust in Jesus. This IS according to the Bible

First of all, you need to get your facts straight. The Jews do believe the Messiah will come. The Messiah has not come yet, and according to the Bible that your bible got it's information from, peace will prevail. As far as I can tell, this has not happened as of yet. You are correct in one thing though, the Messiah will be a Jew.

Wrong. The Jewish people only THINK they are not going to hell. The new testament, inspired by the God of Abraham, clearly explains that ONLY those who trust in the Messiah will be saved from the eternal extinction of the spirit. Remember, Jesus is the very same God-the-son that made the covenant with Abraham. Just because the largest portion of the Jewish community doesn't believe it, it doesn't make it right. This shouldn't be a surprise, since many believed Christ WAS the Messiah, and the priests had Him killed because he threatened their position and power.

Since we already do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, everything you quote from the new testament is purely pretty poetry. According to the Talmud, which is the companion piece of the Torah (which is the first 5 books of the old testament), clearly states that there is no hell, and there is no true evil. We are all born equal and made in gods creation and will ascend to heaven upon our deaths. There is a type of purgatory, however the amount of time is less than a year at best. To me, this is quite a beautiful and enlightening vision of my future as opposed to rotting in your hell. To continue, you believe that people will go to hell if they sin. Since your bible has been translated into several different languages, most recently the king james version, your bible has lost the true meaning of sin. Sin, in the Hebrew translation is "Chet", which means to have missed the mark. This implies that any mistake made can be easily fixed. This is quite different from the fourth or fifth translation you read in your bible.

If you believe in the words of the Torah, then you had better get with the Messiah's program. Talk to Jews for Jesus. They have all of the info you will need, and can show you line by line in the Torah why Jesus is who He says he is. Shalom!

Jews for Jesus is my favorite topic of conversation. They ARE NOT Jews. They are funded by the baptist community. The same people who strategically planned at one of the latest baptist convention to convert every Jew to christianity. How can a true Jew like myself be anything but offended by anyone associated with this agenda.

Jesus was a Jew while he had His earthly ministry. After all, He inspired all of the writing in the Torah. Neither He, nor God the Father, nor God the Holy Spirit are [IJews[/I]. Jews are the descendants of Abram (whom He called Israel) and were "chosen" by God to be the first recipients of His discipline and blessing. The Gentiles inherited this blessing through belief in the Messiah of the Old testatment scripture, Jesus. More than a Man, Jesus is God the Son. It is He, as a person of the triune God, who is worthy of faith and praise, not the identity of His flesh on earth.

Historically, how could he have inspired the Torah, when as I mention before the Torah was the first five books of the old testament, which was written many thousands of years before jesus was born. I'm sure you have read "The Left Behind Series," as I have too. Their information and obvious non exposure to non christians made me laugh, but mostly sad that people like that still exist.

At this point this conversation is over. You can believe what you want to believe. It is obvious to me that you, like most christians, make a life habit to try and convert any non believer. You base your information off of mistranslated text, and empty minded information. My ancestors have met your kind time and time again, through the crusades to the horrific Spanish inquisition, to the viscous progoms to most recently the holocaust. Every time I see a swastika in a public place, I remember that there are people that will forever try to change me or eradicate me and my kind.

Once again, as my original post stated, none of this belongs on this board. Keep it in your church or your home or in your car with like minded people.

Shalom and Happy Passover!

 

[sf3boy]

I fly with flight attendants who are gay. They talk about their encounters in the crew rooms and on the plane. I ask them to refrain from that type of conversation in my presence. I then proceed to get reamed on how it is their right to talk about what ever they darn well please. Freedom of speech. So, I choose not to listen. Maybe some of the people here should choose not to listen if the topic is not what they wish to hear.

I have always found it amusing that those with no religion bash on those who are Christian, but seem to say nothing of ill will to those who are Muslim, Hindu, Satanic, etc....Anyone have thoughts as to the reason. I am clueless.

I have found that freedom of speech is kind of like sexual harrasment. It is only harrasment if it is the wrong type of guy. Freedom of speech is only allowed to a certain percentage of the population.

 

[chperplt]

I have always found it amusing that those with no religion bash on those who are Christian, but seem to say nothing of ill will to those who are Muslim, Hindu, Satanic, etc....Anyone have thoughts as to the reason. I am clueless

You are correct in one thing... You are clueless.

Why is that people who are not christian are assumed to be without religion? We have religion, it's just not your religion.

 

[sf3boy]

I forgot one thing. Since this is an aviation web board, there should only be talk of planes on this site from now on. Those that want to talk about women and drinking, go to the women and drinking website. Don't bring any of that "what is better, a Dodge or a Chevy" crap here. Keep it in your garage where it belongs. I never again want to read about info on where to get a good deal on a camera. That too has no business being brought into an aviation forum.