Some thoughts on military verses civilian (with some civility)

[AlbieF15]

After watching the luffberry on the CAL/SWA thread, I thought I'd throw out a few thoughts...

The fact is there are more than a few ways to skin a cat, seduce a pretty girl, or get an airline job. Getting scratched up, shot down in flames in front of your buddies, and getting furloughed are all consequences of failure, but there are plenty of cat rugs, knocked up wives, and guys getting a paycheck to prove those things can in fact all be done.

Using the baseline that the ultimate aviation expert has a current CFII, flys for a major airline, is (was) an F-15 instructor pilot with 2300 F-15 hours, has a solid air to ground FAC background, and owns one of the most perfect flying machines ever made (a Navion, of course...), there are still plenty of other good aviators from other walks of life and backgrounds (...by the way....the if you cannot see the irony or tongue in cheek sarcasm here then consider let me make this plain (plane?)...the last paragraph was in FUN).

So...seriously...what traits DO we look for in solid aviators? What do you want from a solid F/O or captain? What does a good C17 IP bring to the fight? What makes a good F-16 weapons officer? Who makes a good LCA...or a captiain we want to be paired with all month? If we look at what does count--I think we'll find a lot of similar traits.

First--I think a good aviator is safe. He/she is tough enough to tell a CP, owner, student, or DO that "this ain't safe...this is dumb....and I'm not doing it". He or she is technically competent. They know the rules, the system, and how they are to operate within that system...either flying the B1900 into podunk USA or rolling down the chute on a TIC situation on a CAS mission.

Next--he/she is a good communicator. As an IP or LCA...if you can fly but can't teach you are worthless. If you make it easy for everyone else to understand what you need...work is a breeze. Make me guess and its a long trip for both of us. So...I relish flying with people who can articulate the plan...either as part of an 8 v x or briefing an arrival into Newark.

A solid aviator is always trying to improve. There is always something to learn, and a way to do a job more effectively. Flying with someone who engages their mind and doesn't just mindlessly drone along bored with their career and life is a lot more fun.

A good aviator doesn't dump 20 years of personal baggage on you--in the cockpit or at the squadron. I'll be your friend...but turning the cockpit into your personal therapy box makes the day very long for everyone else around you...

A NICE person also doesn't gloat or belittle others. Whether you are the "ICE MAN 20 years later" ******************************bag or the fighter wannabe with a huge chip on your shoulder....I'll be you have already done some pretty cool stuff in your career. If you have an interesting story that involves planes (or women, or boats, or booze) I'd much rather hear about your days pushing a Baron around the worst ice or taking that twin otter down the Grand Canyon than hearing another (*&^ Red Flag story....hell...I've BEEN to Red Flag but haven't done that stuff. So...let's chat...

What does all this have to do with FI? Let me share two stories from recent days on the line at my airline...

1. Flying with LCA. Discussion on backgrounds ensues... I make the comment "yeah...GA is still my favorite part of aviation..." His reply was something along the lines of "I dont' do that crap anymore. I dont' want to do anything and lose my ticket...."

2. Flying with LCA. Favorite layover? Captain informs me he and another crewmember went out to Dillingham on north shore of Oahu on layover and found some folks running the gliderport. Made friends. Henceforth, everytime they had 24 hours off in Hawaii they were skeedaddling up to gliderport and soaring with the locals over some gorgeous countryside and beaches. Same trip--he challenged me to fly the last 100 miles without touching the throttles. So--he's got more time in the 727 than I have total, yet we still found a way to have fun, challenge each other, and learn something along the way.

Hmm...who do I want to fly with? Granted--I am a sucker for guys who love to fly...but the second guy was a hoot to fly and chat with. Both were 100% civilian backgrounds...

If I used pilot one to represent a guy with a different background, I'd say "he stunk". If I used pilot 2, I'd say "greatest guy in the world..." The fact is it more dependent on the PERSON than where that guy was first.

I've flown with some pretty cool military background guys. I've also flown with some pretty boring ones, too. The guy who has no interest in any other flying but what he did "back in the day..." is boring to me too.

So--when I see posts that say "tool" and other similar silly stuff...I cringe. We got a great resouce here to help one another, learn from one another, and share some neat stories along the way. I choose to let most of that go off my back, as I've got enough different flying I can relate to about anyone... I know how tough finding a target at night on the East TAC range can be, how exciting a Green Flag push can be, and what it feels like to fly a Cat II approach to mins in LAX when a Pacific Coastal fog rolls in. Each takes it owns set of skills...

Gotta love this job...why don't we try to share the good stuff...

 

[Phaedrus]

C'mon fighter dude! it's 'versus' not 'verses'! You know, 'one v. one, etc'. You've been civilian too long

 

[Phaedrus]

Right on with the good vibes Albie....

 

[PreContact]

I'm so thankful as an AF heavy driver that I got paired up with a 121 guy during my initial training at UPS. We military guys often don't realize just how hard these civilian guys/girls have had to work to get hired by a major. CFIing, flying for questionable operators, shoddy MX, multiple furloughs, low pay, etc. I'm thankful that Uncle Sam picked up the tab for me to learn how to fly all over the world, and I have been paying him back since.

I also can't stand these mil vs. civ arguments. There are good and bad apples all around. Just be safe out there guys!

 

[Huck]

The BEST pilots:

- Can fly the sh!t out of the plane,

- Are truly fun to be around.

I've flown with guys that meet both tests, above, and I'd fly through hell with them.

I've also flown with guys that meet # 1 , above, but not # 2. I can tolerate them but they make my life harder.

The guys that can't do #1 but CAN do # 2 are still ok, but HEAR THIS: they are the most dangerous. You catch yourself letting your guard down.

If they don't meet either criteria, I'm on my guard and miserable.

Military v. civilian? Bullsh!t. A worthless argument as far as I'm concerned....

As for GA flying - I love it, I envy you Albie, I plan to start my RV-8 this fall. I also think that George Bush is doing his damndest to kill off general aviation before he leaves office.....

 

[HalinTexas]

I also think that George Bush is doing his dangdest to kill off general aviation before he leaves office.....

What the hell does this have to do with politics?

Let's keep it on topic, shall we?

 

[SWAdude]

Two words.

Mutual Respect.

You can teach em how to fly, but you can't change their attitude.

 

[Huck]

What the hell does this have to do with politics?

I thought we were at least tangentially talking about GA.

If you don't know what's going on there, let me summarize it for you: in 5 years there won't BE any civilian guys, except for ab initio. Never mind. Nice trying to talk to you.

 

[Sig]

Disclaimer: Know-nothing Dash Trash input.

What makes a good captain? Being an F/O for the good ones, the bad ones, knowing the difference and never forgetting why.

What makes a good F/O? I wouldn't know, and probably never will.

 

[AlbieF15]

What the hell does this have to do with politics?

Let's keep it on topic, shall we?

Aviation user fees....open skies....and a host of other stuff. My wife is president of a local Republican group, but there have been a lot of policies and things that have come out in the last two years that DO NOT help my own personal interests.

We are losing student starts as it is, and the regionals low pay is discouraging the pilot mills of the 90s . GA is in a downward direction...and more costs won't help. Huck's comments about GA are frustration at the direction something we love is headed.

For 60-70 years America led the aviation world... I want my kids to be able to enjoy flying a Citabria or a Cirrus of their own--and we need to work together to keep that asset. I'm not anti-George Bush, but I am against anyone who starts eroding one of the few areas where American business has been at the forefront for years...

 

[Huck]

AOPA information website.

This isn't about blips, or funding, or whether individual pilots pay enough. It's about creating a radical new way to pay for government safety services and turning control of safety over to private industry. It's about cost, safety, and freedom. It's about preserving general aviation and the freedom of average citizens to fly for business and pleasure.
—Phil Boyer

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Is thread about evil Republicans or SWA/FO? Just curious.

 

[gutshotdraw]

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic....

I always classify the people I fly with on three criteria:

1. Their hands; stick and rudder skills, ability to accurately manipulate flight controls, whatever you want to call it.

2. Their head; are they ahead of the airplane, anticipating changes or problems, you get the drift.

3. Personality; can they actually carry on a conversation, would they be fun to hang out with on a layover or at least share a cockpit for a few hours.

If you get a guy with all three, you're going to have a blast. Two out of three, you'll probably have a decent trip. One out three, you can get by. If you go o'fer...bagel...donut hole....it's going to be a long tour.

I've been very lucky to have flown with a fair number of 3's, mostly 2's, a handful of 1's and mercifully few of the goose eggs. I've also discovered absolutely no correlation between flying background and where they land on this scale.

 

[MTV]

AlbieF15

Good post.

when I fly with military guys I try to get them to tell me some of the highlights. It's usually pretty entertaining.

 

[jonjuan]

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic....

I always classify the people I fly with on three criteria:

1. Their hands; stick and rudder skills, ability to accurately manipulate flight controls, whatever you want to call it.

2. Their head; are they ahead of the airplane, anticipating changes or problems, you get the drift.

3. Personality; can they actually carry on a conversation, would they be fun to hang out with on a layover or at least share a cockpit for a few hours.

If you get a guy with all three, you're going to have a blast. Two out of three, you'll probably have a decent trip. One out three, you can get by. If you go o'fer...bagel...donut hole....it's going to be a long tour.

I've been very lucky to have flown with a fair number of 3's, mostly 2's, a handful of 1's and mercifully few of the goose eggs. I've also discovered absolutely no correlation between flying background and where they land on this scale.

Just curious, where do you fall in 1-3? This subject is pretty humorous, especially with the replies about how OTHER pilots are often goobers in the cockpit, both socially and skill wise. It's a scene out of "Revenge of the Nerds" - Gilbert: "Lewis, you're such a nerd."

 

[instructordude]

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic....

I always classify the people I fly with on three criteria:

1. Their hands; stick and rudder skills, ability to accurately manipulate flight controls, whatever you want to call it.

2. Their head; are they ahead of the airplane, anticipating changes or problems, you get the drift.

3. Personality; can they actually carry on a conversation, would they be fun to hang out with on a layover or at least share a cockpit for a few hours.

If you get a guy with all three, you're going to have a blast. Two out of three, you'll probably have a decent trip. One out three, you can get by. If you go o'fer...bagel...donut hole....it's going to be a long tour.

I've been very lucky to have flown with a fair number of 3's, mostly 2's, a handful of 1's and mercifully few of the goose eggs. I've also discovered absolutely no correlation between flying background and where they land on this scale.

I would bet most fighter pilots score pretty high on 1 and 2 (Very high stick and rudder, and very very high SA) but may not be the easiest peronality 3.

 

[AlbieF15]

So...

After trying to find the common ground you arbitrarily decide fighter pilots are tough to get along with on a trip. Hmmm....while I cannot say there aren't any fighter guys at Go-jet, I can also say there aren't many. So you are making a gross generalization based on a very small (perhaps empty) sample size.

Which is exactly what I was saying we shouldn't do...

Oh well...I tried...

 

[instructordude]

So...

After trying to find the common ground you arbitrarily decide fighter pilots are tough to get along with on a trip. Hmmm....while I cannot say there aren't any fighter guys at Go-jet, I can also say there aren't many. So you are making a gross generalization based on a very small (perhaps empty) sample size.

Which is exactly what I was saying we shouldn't do...

Oh well...I tried...

I said maybe, don't really know. No fighter guys at Gojet. I wonder why?:laugh:

 

[Huck]

Oh well...I tried...

God love ya Albie, you're the most optimistic guy....

 

[Deuce130]

I said maybe, don't really know. No fighter guys at Gojet. I wonder why?:laugh:

In the interest of "paying it forward" I'll leave this one alone. It's so obvious I won't touch it. On another note, my grandfather, dad and brother are all fighter pilots, so I've got some insight. As long as you keep fighter pilots in groups of less than three you'll be alright. I always knew there was a reason I was sent the Herc route, someone had to preserve the good name of the family.