Some thoughts on military verses civilian (with some civility)

[Scrapdog]

Thanks Albie

I would like to be the first to apologize about some of my recent tirades. I think I get a little too fired up over a few a-holes that continuously think calling a colonel in the military (who usually has 20+ years of serving his country and has a great deal of wisdom and wordly experience) - a "kernel" because they think it's a cute putdown. Whatever right? Who cares, obviously that guy has lost prespective and by ranting along with him, I'm just going down to his level - of course I won't mention names...

It is a great honor to serve in the military. I have loved every minute of it and will continue to love it for god-willing the next 20+ years of my life. I have the very fortunate honor to get to fly the latest generation fighter coming off the assembly in the very near future. I won't dissapoint you guys, and I'll continue to strive to maintain the upmost professionalism in all my endevours.

Albie - thanks for putting things in prespective. Again, for my past tirades - I do apologize!

 

[canyonblue]

I think I get a little too fired up over a few a-holes that continuously think calling a colonel in the military (who usually has 20+ years of serving his country and has a great deal of wisdom and wordly experience) - a "kernel" because they think it's a cute putdown. Whatever right? Who cares, obviously that guy has lost prespective and by ranting along with him, I'm just going down to his level - of course I won't mention names...

I have never heard of the "kernel" comment until I arrived at SWA. I will also note that it was said by the former military pilots I flew with, guys who I enjoyed flying with. As a civilian I have no idea exactly what a Colonel in the military is, or does. But if I were to take the comments that some of the military pilots I have flown with at SWA have said, it would be a guy that got to the top through ineptitude and brown nosing (Their comments, not mine). If anyone is guilty of the "k" word at SWA, it would be the military guys that have embedded that stereotype in me. As far as me, I like to believe the Colonel just makes some tasty chicken, as I have never worked with one.

 

[AlbieF15]

I would like to be the first to apologize about some of my recent tirades. I think I get a little too fired up over a few a-holes that continuously think calling a colonel in the military (who usually has 20+ years of serving his country and has a great deal of wisdom and wordly experience) - a "kernel" because they think it's a cute putdown. Whatever right? Who cares, obviously that guy has lost prespective and by ranting along with him, I'm just going down to his level - of course I won't mention names...

No apologies to me are necessary, but if I offer any advice it is always "living well is the best revenge..."

You are my freakin' hero....2 front line fighters models on your desk and the third just a TX class away... I never really worried about what another airline pilot thought about me when I was out over the Gulf doing a student ride soaking up the gorgeous view of the FLA coast. I also enjoyed skipping out of the squadron political battles and flying a 727 to Reno to eat Sushi at the Reno Hilton... You...more than anyone I know...are about to have the most interesting double-life of any pilot out there. Someobody call you a "kernel"? Who cares--when you are hiding in ambush caps behind Worthington Mountain, going TDY to fight in Yukon airspace, or shooting A-120s off the coast on a WSEP? When things get too stuffy at (east coast base soon to be blended unit) you can go fly a 3-4 day trip and see some of the country, eat some good food, and (soon) make some pretty good coin. Then when that gets dull you can go rage in a way that will make most of the rest of us green with envy. Savor it brother--it passes too fast. I'm excited about moving on past my F-15 days, and my back demanded it...but on a pretty day looking south and seeing those jets approach X-ray West you cannot help but be wistful. Go get it while you can... You cannot make anyone else understand how satisfying flying a fighter is...nor can you adequately express to a career 0-6 who outside of flying fighters has 20 hours in a C-172 how much fun a trip in a 737/757/777 can be. You can, however, wear a smug smile and thank God every day you get to experience TWO seperate careers while many will never even get to taste either experience.

 

[mdf]

I would like to be the first to apologize about some of my recent tirades. I think I get a little too fired up over a few a-holes that continuously think calling a colonel in the military (who usually has 20+ years of serving his country and has a great deal of wisdom and wordly experience) - a "kernel" because they think it's a cute putdown. Whatever right? Who cares, obviously that guy has lost prespective and by ranting along with him, I'm just going down to his level - of course I won't mention names...

It is a great honor to serve in the military. I have loved every minute of it and will continue to love it for god-willing the next 20+ years of my life. I have the very fortunate honor to get to fly the latest generation fighter coming off the assembly in the very near future. I won't dissapoint you guys, and I'll continue to strive to maintain the upmost professionalism in all my endevours.

Albie - thanks for putting things in prespective. Again, for my past tirades - I do apologize!

That's pretty stand up Scrapdog! I wish the military vs. civilian topic would vanish from flightinfo. I am almost embarrassed to say I have been watching this board for almost 6 years. In that time this has been a recurring theme, and anyone who has flown the line a little knows it has no merit. As a former poolie this board used to be great for getting really up to date info. Every once in a while you can still get the scoop here, but those times are few and far between anymore. Good luck at CAL looks like a good place to be!

 

[thebest]

After watching the luffberry on the CAL/SWA thread, I thought I'd throw out a few thoughts...

The fact is there are more than a few ways to skin a cat, seduce a pretty girl, or get an airline job. Getting scratched up, shot down in flames in front of your buddies, and getting furloughed are all consequences of failure, but there are plenty of cat rugs, knocked up wives, and guys getting a paycheck to prove those things can in fact all be done.

Using the baseline that the ultimate aviation expert has a current CFII, flys for a major airline, is (was) an F-15 instructor pilot with 2300 F-15 hours, has a solid air to ground FAC background, and owns one of the most perfect flying machines ever made (a Navion, of course...), there are still plenty of other good aviators from other walks of life and backgrounds (...by the way....the if you cannot see the irony or tongue in cheek sarcasm here then consider let me make this plain (plane?)...the last paragraph was in FUN).

So...seriously...what traits DO we look for in solid aviators? What do you want from a solid F/O or captain? What does a good C17 IP bring to the fight? What makes a good F-16 weapons officer? Who makes a good LCA...or a captiain we want to be paired with all month? If we look at what does count--I think we'll find a lot of similar traits.

First--I think a good aviator is safe. He/she is tough enough to tell a CP, owner, student, or DO that "this ain't safe...this is dumb....and I'm not doing it". He or she is technically competent. They know the rules, the system, and how they are to operate within that system...either flying the B1900 into podunk USA or rolling down the chute on a TIC situation on a CAS mission.

Next--he/she is a good communicator. As an IP or LCA...if you can fly but can't teach you are worthless. If you make it easy for everyone else to understand what you need...work is a breeze. Make me guess and its a long trip for both of us. So...I relish flying with people who can articulate the plan...either as part of an 8 v x or briefing an arrival into Newark.

A solid aviator is always trying to improve. There is always something to learn, and a way to do a job more effectively. Flying with someone who engages their mind and doesn't just mindlessly drone along bored with their career and life is a lot more fun.

A good aviator doesn't dump 20 years of personal baggage on you--in the cockpit or at the squadron. I'll be your friend...but turning the cockpit into your personal therapy box makes the day very long for everyone else around you...

A NICE person also doesn't gloat or belittle others. Whether you are the "ICE MAN 20 years later" ******************************bag or the fighter wannabe with a huge chip on your shoulder....I'll be you have already done some pretty cool stuff in your career. If you have an interesting story that involves planes (or women, or boats, or booze) I'd much rather hear about your days pushing a Baron around the worst ice or taking that twin otter down the Grand Canyon than hearing another (*&^ Red Flag story....hell...I've BEEN to Red Flag but haven't done that stuff. So...let's chat...

What does all this have to do with FI? Let me share two stories from recent days on the line at my airline...

1. Flying with LCA. Discussion on backgrounds ensues... I make the comment "yeah...GA is still my favorite part of aviation..." His reply was something along the lines of "I dont' do that crap anymore. I dont' want to do anything and lose my ticket...."

2. Flying with LCA. Favorite layover? Captain informs me he and another crewmember went out to Dillingham on north shore of Oahu on layover and found some folks running the gliderport. Made friends. Henceforth, everytime they had 24 hours off in Hawaii they were skeedaddling up to gliderport and soaring with the locals over some gorgeous countryside and beaches. Same trip--he challenged me to fly the last 100 miles without touching the throttles. So--he's got more time in the 727 than I have total, yet we still found a way to have fun, challenge each other, and learn something along the way.

Hmm...who do I want to fly with? Granted--I am a sucker for guys who love to fly...but the second guy was a hoot to fly and chat with. Both were 100% civilian backgrounds...

If I used pilot one to represent a guy with a different background, I'd say "he stunk". If I used pilot 2, I'd say "greatest guy in the world..." The fact is it more dependent on the PERSON than where that guy was first.

I've flown with some pretty cool military background guys. I've also flown with some pretty boring ones, too. The guy who has no interest in any other flying but what he did "back in the day..." is boring to me too.

So--when I see posts that say "tool" and other similar silly stuff...I cringe. We got a great resouce here to help one another, learn from one another, and share some neat stories along the way. I choose to let most of that go off my back, as I've got enough different flying I can relate to about anyone... I know how tough finding a target at night on the East TAC range can be, how exciting a Green Flag push can be, and what it feels like to fly a Cat II approach to mins in LAX when a Pacific Coastal fog rolls in. Each takes it owns set of skills...

Gotta love this job...why don't we try to share the good stuff...

What are you trying to sell????

 

[AlbieF15]

What are you trying to sell????

1999-2002...tons of gouge on airline interivews, life on the line, and some wise perpsectives from guys that had "been there, done that..."

2004-present "you suck". "No...YOU suck" "No..you REALLY suck..."

What I'm selling is the idea that we have a lot of good info to share and some interesting perspectives... We've got guys on the boards who've flown U-2s, 747s, Piper cubs, twin otters, and everything in between. We got guys who've been hired, fired, furloughed, recalled, mil-leaved, displaced, and medical'd out. However--in the current climate--a lot of those posters have either migrated elsewhere (FWIW...I moderate at another board) or simply decide not to participate. Its ALL of our loss when that happens...

What am I selling? A great product...flightinfo circa 2001/2002. Let's see if we can get some of that back...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Albie,

I appreciate your efforts. Events of the past few years have hammered the industry and hurt the profession. Some minds require a villian (or villians...but it must be a small group to fit within the frag pattern of a Bile Grenade) to reconcile the erosion of their expectations.

Pity.

You'd think that tough times would bind the "band of brothers" together, but it appears the old adage is correct: "Tough times don't build character...they reveal it!" We are, after all, a very homogenous group. The things we have in common are numerous, significant, and tend to coalesce us: Unique skills, definitive qualification process, goal-oriented backgrounds, and a seniority system (which eliminates most of the #1 and #2 disunifying aspects of "normal" merit-based corporate systems...butt-smooching and back-stabbing).

But every so often the cycle is down, and the grenadiers on the cusps or in transition go weapons free, with predictable results.

It makes it tough to mesh as a profession.

The element of the military that I miss the most that might have something to do with the way we mesh, is the Ready Room. We don't have that at the airlines. It's rare that many of us gather in one place for no good reason, and that's too bad.

As for the civilian vs military...I gotta say that after 7-years of giving checkrides in the box and on the line...I can't find a trend or a noticiable difference.

That's another plus for the "band of brothers"!

 

[Benhuntn]

I always thought I was the best but wasn't sure but now that I have Huck's two criteria I know I am the best. I manipulate a mean autopilot and guys love to fly with me, rampers smile and wink at me and flight Atts. hug me at the end of every trip (even the female one's). I feel better about my self, I must me a metrosexual pilot.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Albie,



The element of the military that I miss the most that might have something to do with the way we mesh, is the Ready Room. We don't have that at the airlines. It's rare that many of us gather in one place for no good reason, and that's too bad.

Unfortunately, in a modern era it has become Flightinfo.com....hang out at the local FBO, Military Base, fellow comrades, etc. (if Momma will let you!). I feel "bad" for spending too much time on FI. I should be seeing people face to face.

 

[LeonPhelps]

1999-2002...tons of gouge on airline interivews, life on the line, and some wise perpsectives from guys that had "been there, done that..."

2004-present "you suck". "No...YOU suck" "No..you REALLY suck..."

What I'm selling is the idea that we have a lot of good info to share and some interesting perspectives... We've got guys on the boards who've flown U-2s, 747s, Piper cubs, twin otters, and everything in between. We got guys who've been hired, fired, furloughed, recalled, mil-leaved, displaced, and medical'd out. However--in the current climate--a lot of those posters have either migrated elsewhere (FWIW...I moderate at another board) or simply decide not to participate. Its ALL of our loss when that happens...

What am I selling? A great product...flightinfo circa 2001/2002. Let's see if we can get some of that back...

Go Albie Go! I will bring the bottle of courvossier, and the boxth of mexthican wine!