Some serious venting about Jumpseating!

[flight-crew]

I'm about to do some serious venting and I hope to get some good replies on what you think about this whole issue.

Ever since 9/11, the whole jumpseating deal has really been screwed up and ruined. Here's where we are at:

FedEx, UPS, and most of the other cargo carriers - NO JUMPSEATING ALLOWED WHATSOEVER by offline pilots.

All other majors - No cockpit jumpseating allowed.

The airline that you work for (or major associated with your regional) - You can cockpit jumpseat, and some require employment verification via telephone.


Now I'm going to ask a serious question which probably represents the biggest double standard out there! What does the FAA need to ride on the cockpit jumpseat? Their FAA I.D. and an FAA piece of paper authorizing them to jumpseat. That's it. Yet for most of us to jumpseat, we present our company I.D., our airmen certificate, our medical certificate, have our employment verified by telephone, and sometimes also present our drivers license and passport. That's 5 forms of I.D., plus a telephone call to verify employment! How do we know that the FAA guy isn't some terrorist who made up a fake FAA I.D. and jumpseat authorization paper. If the FAA is going to be cockpit jumpseating then we should be allowed to on ALL AIRLINES.

This has serverly affected the lives of thousands and thousands of pilots. To this day I can't believe that ALPA hasn't taken a stronger stance on this. I personally don't think we should have returned to work until this whole jumpseat thing was worked out, or at least some hard deadline was set. If they want to set up some type of national verification center then fine, but lets not take 10 years to do it! I'm not sure if all of these new jumpseating policies and procedures are FAA, Company, or a little bit of both, but it needs to be dealt with immediately. I'm tired of the procrastination and delays. This could go on for years.

One last point that I would like to make. I would hope that someday every airline would allow unlimited jumpseaters. To the ones that already do today, kudos to them. It just kills me to see a plane full of empty seats leave the gate with 3 or 4 jumpseaters who couldn't get on because the airline would only allow one jumpseater. The seats are empty anyway, so what difference does it make.

I think the best thing that we can do at this point is to write ALPA and let them know that we are serious about restoring cockpit jumpseating. This current system is completely unacceptable.

 

[328dude]

Actually, I think ALPA has done pretty good getting things restored to where they are today. I commute to work. It's always atleast two legs. Yes, it takes me some more time to call and see if the planes full and I even had to buy a few ID-90's but atleast we still have the privilage. I know it's not what it used to be, but I do have faith that it will be back to norm hopefully soon. Yes, its harder to get home, but it can be done with some planning the night before. If the airpliens and the FEDs go ahead with this universal pilot ID, I think things will go back to normal. Keep your fingers crossed.


As far as FedEx and UPS go. It's not the companys fault. It's the FAA's fault. You can read the letter on the ALPA website that the cargo guys sent to all the airlines.

Your comment about not returning to work till the full jiumpseat is restored. Dude, I can smell what your smoking from here. Be serious.

 

[cvsfly]

According to our POI at our FSDO, (he) FAA can't jumpseat just for personal/pleasure travel. They have to be on "company" business (i.e. giving a line check or some other official reason they are there). Otherwise they (FAA) pays a goverment fare. This may not apply to all FAA positions and titles, but know the requirements, ask questions, and don't let them abuse their position or yours.

 

[Draginass]

ALPA started asking the FAA for universal IDs in 1989. FAA/DOT action to date? . . . . well, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Freight Dog]

Awhile back, I read on ALPA's message boards that some captains were denying FAA a jumpseat by stating they could not verify their credentials.

Talk about cajones... and I can't blame these guys...

 

[sydeseet]

Unlimited jumpseating on the majors (because they are more closely watched) was snuffed out by the IRS years ago. Our friends at the treasury department considered it improper for an infinite amount of people to travel at will without paying any sort of taxes. I'm serious about this. They felt that jumpseating had become a free-for-all and that it was being abused by the airlines and the pilots. Hence, one jump-seater per jump-seat - more or less. This is slowly going away as the IRS has moved on to bigger and better battles worth much more money so good times may come again. I think reciprocal agreements are out-dated too. If the person has a legit 121 badge, the right credentials, a union card, and the seat is available why do we have to have an agreement in writing??????? Can't we consider our seats open to everyone? Especially amongst ALPA carriers; we all pay dues to the same organization for the same privelages!!!!!!

 

[enigma]

don't open that can of worms

Especially amongst ALPA carriers; we all pay dues to the same organization for the same privelages!!!!!!

Man don't open that can of worms here, or we'll end up with another defense coalition.

Seriously, great point about the IRS. My carrier allows unlimited jumpseaters, but the go on a non-rev pass if there is more than one.
regards
8N

 

[skydiverdriver]

I don't know why the IRS would care about how many seats an airline wishes to give away for free. How could they tax something that is not paid for? Perhaps they need to come up with a travel tax, so that when you drive across any state border, you pay a fee. Oops, don't want to give them any ideas.

About the reciprocal agreement question, well, if you work for a regional, many majors wouldn't for a long time let any of them ride. The reason we have reciprocals is because some airlines are very stingy on their approved list, and if you didn't have an agreement, you didn't go. So, to help them allow you on their airline, you had to restrict them from yours until they agreed. This happened a long time ago, so many of you probably don't remember.

As for the snide remark about another defense coalition, I guess you can make fun of people who try to make things better for everyone by fighting for our rights. I suppose you make fun of people like George Washington and Susan B. Anthony too, don't you?

 

[skydiverdriver]

PS,
The original point on letting the FAA ride without any more posative ID than the average pilot has is well taken. Of course, they run the show, so what can we do? Now you have given some terrorist a good idea too. Perhaps you should have kept this private. Oh well.

 

[enigma]

Lighten up

As for the snide remark about another defense coalition, I guess you can make fun of people who try to make things better for everyone by fighting for our rights. I suppose you make fun of people like George Washington and Susan B. Anthony too, don't you?

SDD

You must be a real joy to have to spend time with. I feel for poor slobs you get paired with.

It was a Funny, a lighthearted remark. Grow up.

8N

PS, if you don't know why the IRS casts a dubious eye toward things that are "free", you are either ignorant or inexperienced in the world of business.

 

[Freight Dog]

Actually, Hawaiian Airlines had open jumpseat policy for years now, and even now.. they take their furloughees too. They'd pile as many jumpseaters in the back as they can fit. I've seen as many as 9 jumpseaters from LAX-HNL.

ATA is the same way...

Hope the big 5 do the same thing....

 

[T-handle]

uh

"All other majors - No cockpit jumpseating allowed.

The airline that you work for (or major associated with your regional) - You can cockpit jumpseat, and some require employment verification via telephone. "


Many majors allow cockpit jumpseating, but usually for their mainline pilots and some regional affiliates. I will speak for NWA and Mesaba. NWA allows up to 3 jumpseaters. They will fill the cabin first before resorting to the flightdeck. The only pilots allowed to sit upfront in NWA cockpits are NWA, Mesaba, Express I, and Alaska via employment verification.

At Mesaba, we have an unlimited jumpseat policy. We will take as many jumpseaters as there are seats. We will fill the cabin first before resorting to the jumpseat. The only pilots allowed to sit upfront at Mesaba are NWA, Mesaba, and Express I via employment verification.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Enigma,
Sometimes it's tough to tell when someone is kidding, expecially with written text where voice inflection is not heard. However, I also feel sorry for the people who get paired with you, as you keep harping on the same thing over and over. At least I try to vary it a bit.

 

[enigma]

That's why I used a smiley face!!!!

Enigma,
Sometimes it's tough to tell when someone is kidding, expecially with written text where voice inflection is not heard. However, I also feel sorry for the people who get paired with you, as you keep harping on the same thing over and over. At least I try to vary it a bit.

Dear Mr. Driver,

Whether I was initially kidding or not, I didn't invite you to take offense. Neither did I call you out, AND I did put one of those little "smiley faces" at the end of my sentence. So your explanation doesn't hold much water.

Other than your RJDC stuff, I really couldn't say what you harp on. I just don't pay that much attention to who posts what. So if you vary your input a bit, good for you.
If you don't like what I harp on, THEN DON'T READ MY POSTS.

Are you a female? You comunicate just like my ex-wife. First you take any opportunity to percieve a slight, then you reply as if you were in fact slighted, then you get mad because everyone argues with you. Do you ever step back and think before you react to ever situation or comment as if someone is talking to you? Did it ever occur to you that you are not the only person in the world? Did you consider that you may have been the furthest thought from my mind when I made a funny about starting a defence coalition. Like I said, Grow up.

8N

BTW, my carrier does have a no-fly option in bidding, and I'm not on it. Sorry.

PPS I searched both our post historys for the last month. You came up with 149 and I came up with 38. You're right, you do vary your input, or maybe you just have to have something to say about everything.

Remember, some people open their mouth because they have something to say, others open their mouth just because they have to say something.

 

[sleddriver77]

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG????

 

[trigeek]

As far as the FAA goes, they travel for personal pleasure all the time. The majority of FAA line checks I've experienced is by an inspector going to visit someone. All they have to do is fill out a form to justify their being there on that jumpseat. The flip side of that is I would rather get a line check from one of those individuals (normally in a good mood and looking forward to their trip) than someone like the loser who jumped us at 0530 out of Portland, ME on Mother's Day! Talk about a guy with issues...he was going out for the day to give checkrides.

 

[starchkr]

Ok, so what about the 135 guys?

Should we be included in this open jumpseat idea?

I am sure most of you would say no, but why?

 

[XJAVRO]

As long as the 135 guys are on our jumpseat list at Mesaba we take unlimited. Airnet is on the list, so if you guys need to go anywhere and there are open seats pile in.

 

[Caveman]

I have no beef with the freight guys personally but I think it's time we stopped letting them JS until they open up their JS. I know, I know .....it's the feds. However, I'm betting that when FedEx and UPS suddenly can't complete flights because the pilots can't get to work these companies could bring a lot of political pressure to bear on the folks that could get the JS back open again. Same goes for the rest of the Fortune 500 companies whose financial lives depend on freight. Good, bad or otherwise big money is the best way to get a little political pork served up.

 

[niteflyr]

So, what is your point?

You say you know it is the Feds that won't open up the freighter jumpseats, but you still think they should be banned from jumpseating? I don't get it. Actually FedEx and UPS mainly jump on thier own airplanes, they actually have a better network to get around on than most airlines. Things will change, it always does and there is no need for the PAXers to shoot themselves in the foot when this is all settled. As a former freight pilot I carried MANY pilots from the majors to get to and from work in the late night and morning hours and was glad to do it. I think ALPA and the others realize this and have been great to let the freighters keep riding. This all reminds me why I quit commuting, I don't envy anyone who has to Jumpseat.

 

[Freight Dog]

Ok, so what about the 135 guys?

Should we be included in this open jumpseat idea?

I am sure most of you would say no, but why?

I think we should allow 135 guys in the jumpseats, but they should be able to reciprocate. In other words, if I want to go to Podunk, New Mexico, I should be able to hop on a Cessna 402 with a load of freight in the back and get a ride there.

When I was at Ameriflight, I gave rides to quite a few SWA pilots out of OAK in Lances and Chieftains. There's nothing wrong with that. But it should be just that... be able to reciprocate and Ameriflight is more than able to reciprocate. My first 135 job - air tour company.. should not be held to a different standard - they should be able to reciprocate with a free air tour space-available if they intend to use my jumpseat. Finally, Part 135 companies should also adhere to the jumpseat protocol and not utilize jumpseat to reposition crews which was the case with many 135 operators, which is why many airlines booted them off their lists.

All of that should be done in writing and reciprocal agreements put in place.

Finally, if they intend to utilize the cockpit jumpseat and not a seat in the back, they need to be subject to the same set of rules as 121 pilots - telephone verification of employment.

I come from a Part 135 background, and I want to see those guys back in jumpseats, but at the same time, I dont want their employers raping our airline by requiring their pilots to abuse their privilege to save company money to reposition crews.

 

[CA1900]

I think we should allow 135 guys in the jumpseats, but they should be able to reciprocate.

I come from a Part 135 background, and I want to see those guys back in jumpseats, but at the same time, I dont want their employers raping our airline by requiring their pilots to abuse their privilege to save company money to reposition crews.

I couldn't have said it better myself, and that's a big reason I'm not too keen on fractional guys jumping on our airline. Our company says Exec Jet is OK because they have a 135 certificate, but they really can't reciprocate. Unless there's a central 800 number I can call to check THEIR empty-leg schedules to plan my trip, the ability to ride on their empty planes is meaningless.

They're generally good guys (many came from our own airline) and I appreciate it when they buy tickets on us, but that was a big part of the benefit package they knew they were going to lose when they left the airline side of things. Jumpseat agreements are one of the few real perks of airline life, and I don't think it's one we should extend to just anyone. Being able to reciprocally jumpseat on them is kinda the whole point.

 

[starchkr]

Ok, your answers were well taken, now what if i tell you that "prior" 9/11 Airnet had an OPEN JUMPSEAT agreement with ANY pilot working for a 135 or 121 company. Even with this liberal policy, we were still not allowed on many carriers, yet we technically "reciprocated" to every one.

Here is my question... If Airnet was to again inlist an OPEN JUMPSEAT agreement with any 135 or 121 pilot, would you be willing to do the same to us? Now realize, it is the pilots that take their requests directly to the JSC in their company, now would you be willing to take us to them on our offer of reciprocating?

Just to clear some things up, currently we do not offer an open agreement because of 9/11, and we can only allow reciprocal airlines to ride, of which we currently have something like 30. We are in the process of trying to re-open our list to EVERYONE.

As far as using jumpseats to repo crews, i know we do not do this. The two times i have had to repo due to mechanical problems they purchased an airline ticket for me. They do this for all crew movements which are required and that we cannot put on our own aircraft. I hope that makes some of you feel better.

Also, i completely agree that we should all comply with the same security measures for riding in the jumpseat. There should be no difference in 135 or 121, just a pilot who would appreciate a ride.

 

[Freight Dog]

Not only is AirNet still in ALPA jumpseat registry, but it's a model for all 135 carriers. Of course I'd want Airnet added to any jumpseat list. It's too bad we can't carry any 135 jumpseaters yet. Restoring Part 135 jumpseating should be next priority after getting back into cockpit jumpseat.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Get Real!

I have no beef with the freight guys personally but I think it's time we stopped letting them JS until they open up their JS. I know, I know .....it's the feds. However, I'm betting that when FedEx and UPS suddenly can't complete flights because the pilots can't get to work these companies could bring a lot of political pressure to bear on the folks that could get the JS back open again.

"Caveman"

FedEx is working with the FAA to re-open off-line jumpseaters - period. Most 121 carriers enjoy the SAME FedEx shipping privledges that FedEx pilots currently receive - THAT should hold you over until we get the jumpseats open. I have had only ONE commuter pilot ever jumpseat with me - not a major - a simple commuter dude visiting mom and dad (before 9-11). I know we are "generally" the LAST resort anyone wants to use getting to/from somewhere.

Your ridiculous proposal to restrict jumpseats will backfire. FedEx pilots {right now} have little to no control YET over allowing off-line jumpseaters onboard dude - get a clue! You don't realize most of the time we DH with paid tickets - yeah, filling YOUR otherwise empty seats so YOU can get a paycheck! FedEx doesn't plan or schedule us to make ANY trip simply by walking up and ASKING for a jumpseat - do your homework next time! ANY Capt refusing me a jumpseat (because of idiotic reasons like yours) will NEVER get my 27+ years of future business again.....plenty of other ways to get to work......

I don't know what "management pawn" has been putting these crew-dividing ideas in your mind - but try THINKING about your actions next time.

Speed

 

[flight-crew]

I don't think that we should be denying FedEx or UPS guys. But I do think that both pilot groups need to be putting some serious pressure from their Unions on to management and the FAA. A few months would be understandable, but it's been over 7 months since 9/11.

Has anyone heard the timeline for FedEx and UPS to restore offline jumpseating?

And what's the status with Airborne Express?

 

[NEDude]

I think ALPA, and all pilots who have commuting clauses in their contracts, should organize a national "can't find a jumpseat" day to protest the increased difficulty of jumpseating. Imagine if 30-40% of flights around the nation were cancelled because pilots could not get to work. I'd bet a day or two of that would open the jumpseats back up immediately. What does everyone say?

 

[Caveman]

SpeedRacer,

It's called thinking outside of the box. It wasn't a serious proposal. It was supposed to generate some thought and debate, not personal insults. But if that's the best you can do....

The point wasn't we can't ride on you so you can't ride on us. FedEx, UPS, et al have not been able to get their JS open. Maybe it's time to take a little drastic action to help the process along. I was trying to offer an alternative way to open the JS for everyone.

Yeah, I get discounted shipping from FedEx and I'm grateful for it. So what. They also get ID90's from us. Last time I checked you can't buy an ID90 for FedEx or UPS.

 

[SpeedRacer]

So What?

"Caveman"

Why are FedEx jumpseats so darn important to you all of a sudden? I'm not lobbing personal insults at anyone - BUT if a knucklehead (that's means YOU) starts throwing around ideas about denying jumpseats to freight guys to "kickstart" some far-fetched grassroots effort to force the FAA into action - well then you're fooling yourself.

But I forgot - you're trying to spark some interesting debate!! Yes, well done good man!! I've got a debate then = be happy FedEx Deadheads a majority of their crews on a daily basis on majors (and commuters like you) to AND from our trips. That keeps money flowing to your company and YOU employed.

Finally, the day we start offering ID90's is the day you start flying Indy racecars or even Arabian horses in your twin-prop commuter. You sure you even fly airplanes and you're not some junior in high school? I forgot, you're the confused Marine "PFC" wannabe - that's the ticket!! Not an insult, just an
observation..............don't want to hurt your feelings or anything like that....geez...

 

[Caveman]

Speedracer,

Once again the best you seem to be able to do is insult me personally instead of offering critical and insightful comment. Why is it that when people disagree on ideas too many of us resort to name calling (knucklehead), lame-assed attempts at discrediting the opposition (junior high school student), and guilt by association (management pawn).

I don't particular care about the FedEx JS, but this thread was discussing JS availability or lack thereof. I'll make sure I check with you next time I have a comment on the topic at hand.

My credentials or lack of shouldn't have anything to do with a valid discussion about ideas. My opinion and ideas have as much weight and validity as yours even though we may disagree. Same goes for a junior high school student as long as they engage in debate and not invective. Just to set the record straight since it seems to be a bone of contention with you I served 20+ years in the Marine Corps. It's a good thing I'm not a turboprop commuter pilot or I'd really be insulted.

Using your own text with a few edits here is a suggested way to civilly disagree.

"Caveman

That was an interesting and unconventional idea you had about the FedEx JS. I'm not sure that it will work and I have serious concerns that some airline might actually try to make it happen. I believe that all it will do is make life difficult for freight pilots and not actually achieve anything.

A better way to get the FedEx JS opened up might be ....(fill in your own idea here)....

Even though us freight guys can't reciprocate right now we can still offer you discounted shipping. We are working hard to get the JS back. Like I said, it was an interesting idea but I think it's a little too drastic and I don't think it will work.

Speed"