Soe

Pilot_Ryan

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Fellas, I am not sure how in the hell this happened, but here's my situ.

Got my HS-125 type in June of 2005. Had a 25 hr. SOE at the time of issuance because it was my first type. At the time my training director and I flew the 25 hours and he gave me a signoff. We called the local FSDO and we faxed them that info.

My memory of this event, four years later, is hazy from this point. But what it boils down to is my ATP cert. still says, after all this time, "LIMITATIONS: THIS CERTIFICATE IS SUBJECT TO PILOT-IN-COMMAND LIMITATION FOR HS-125."

Well, if you fast forward from then 'til now, I have logged over 1100 hours of PIC time in Hawkers but I have had that limitation on there the whole time. I have no idea how I managed to completely forget about this but it came up when I was at FlightSafety in Wichita, and they caught it.

Question: how to fix with no pain? I can't find the letter that my training director wrote back in the day (although I think he'd reproduce it for me if I asked). We both sat through this process back in 2005 and what I *think* happened is some random inspector at the FSDO told us that if I had the 25 hours logged that my limitation no longer applied. I am sure this is incorrect in retrospect.

Am I at risk of being in violation for flying ('acting as' PIC) in the meantime? This has all been pt. 91. What I'm thinking about is maybe ignoring the issue of the last four years, taking a single piece of paper showing 25 recent hours signed off by my current training director (who's down with helping out) and asking to have the limitation removed that way.

Anyway... hell... don't know how in the world I overlooked this all this time, but I did. Suggestions appreciated.
 
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ultrarunner

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It's been a LONG time since I have looked at that issue, but as I recall, once you have logged the 25 hrs you take in the paperwork/letter to the FSDO and they re-issue you a new temp certificate without the limitation.

Even though 4 years has passed, I suspect you can still do that.
 

LJ45

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why couldn't you show FSI your time and they issue a new cert?

Also, I would look up any AC that deals with this and get the info from there.
 

ultrarunner

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why couldn't you show FSI your time and they issue a new cert?

Also, I would look up any AC that deals with this and get the info from there.
I believe just the FAA can re-issue under these circumstances.
 

CL600Pilot

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Correct, FSI can't just remove an SOE limitation. We can remove an "SIC required" limitation for single pilot airplanes (Like the BE300/SIC required) by completing another certification checkride with the pilot acting as a single pilot but the FAA needs to remove the SOE.

When I had the SOE removed from my BE300 type all I did was go to the FSDO and show an inspector my logbook verifying 25 hours and signed an 8710 and that was it but that was 10 years ago so it may have changed.
 

CL600Pilot

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PS - have you searched yourself on the FAA website to see if the FAA actually has the limitation on the license still?? Is it possible that you just didn't get the new license in the mail?? The FAA uses an outside contractor in Oke City to actually print the license and mail it.... they (the contractor) have been known to have processing problems before.
 

ultrarunner

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What does SOE stand for? I'm not familiar with that one.

What jehtpilot said.

Basically, there are minimum flight experience requirements that must be met in order for training vendors to issue type-rides in the sim. Failure to meet those requirements results in having that limitation attached until such time as you meet the SOE requirement in the aircraft.
 

pilothouston123

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Call the FSDO and ask them what you need, It depends on the FSDO, A new 8710 must be issued. no big deal how longs its been, Its up the the examiner on what he needs to prove that you have flown 25 in the left seat.
Mine was caught when I applied for the check airman on the G3
 

LRvsH25B

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If you avhe 2 types, then read on. If not, 8710 and over to the FSDO with your records. Go to a FSDO when you are on the road, and not too many questions will get asked as they don't know you or your operation and will not put 2 and 2 togehter.

If you have gotten another type after the H25B:
Read the reg carefully. The SOE is for the 1st type rating only. If you have a 2nd type, it should automatically come off. Some will argue with that, but read the reg, it is just for the 1st type.

Example: YOu could have no jet time and ink of ME rating still wet. Go to FSI and get typed in the Hawker. You'll get the SOE. The day after the Hawker type, you can go back to school and get a type for a G550. Get your type in that, and it will have no SOE and legally, you are allowed to go fly it as PIC in the G550 and the Hawker. The SOE should come off with your 2nd type.
 

Pickle

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If you avhe 2 types, then read on. If not, 8710 and over to the FSDO with your records. Go to a FSDO when you are on the road, and not too many questions will get asked as they don't know you or your operation and will not put 2 and 2 togehter.

If you have gotten another type after the H25B:
Read the reg carefully. The SOE is for the 1st type rating only. If you have a 2nd type, it should automatically come off. Some will argue with that, but read the reg, it is just for the 1st type.

Example: YOu could have no jet time and ink of ME rating still wet. Go to FSI and get typed in the Hawker. You'll get the SOE. The day after the Hawker type, you can go back to school and get a type for a G550. Get your type in that, and it will have no SOE and legally, you are allowed to go fly it as PIC in the G550 and the Hawker. The SOE should come off with your 2nd type.
Are you SURE about that??

We had this discussion last week over lunch and we asked one of the interns if his HS-125 type (which he got after he got his SOE Beechjet type) had the SOE on it and he said that both type ratings had the SOE restriction......

I think that is how the conversation went anyway....
 

jaxpilot

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I had it in on my Learjet type (came from flying Barons with no turbine time). Went to the Orlando FSDO with my logbook and was out 30 minutes later with a new temporary certificate. If you get it taken off now no one should be able to tell that you were flying as PIC with the limitation on your certificate. When you show the FSDO your logbook just say you logged PIC because you were rated but did not act as PIC. They didnt ask me any questions besides "were you in the left seat when you logged these hours?".
 

Pilot_Ryan

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FYI, situation resolved to satisfactory conclusion. Took 25 hours worth of flight logs down to the FSDO, filled out an 8710, and voila, new certificate. Easy.
 

Gear Up!

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Dont know how you would forget something like that but, I guess we all do it..
 

LXApilot

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I got my CE-500 and CE-650 types within three weeks back in 2004. Both type ratings reflected an SOE. After a few months I made an appointment to see an ops inspector at the local FSDO. When I met with him he asked me to show him my logbook reflecting the 25 hours in the left seat, he asked me a few questions, then issued me a new certificate with both SOE's removed. Simple as that, probably took a grand total of 30 minutes.

However, the idea about getting typed twice concurrently to get an SOE removed is not so accurate. In fact, it's highlighted on the FAA website regarding removal of an SOE limitation. Just make the appointment at the FSDO. You'll be in and out in no-time. The ops inspectors are so "airline oriented" it is very rare for them to deal with this. They might even have to look it up themselves.
 

HawkerF/O

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I got my CE-500 and CE-650 types within three weeks back in 2004. Both type ratings reflected an SOE. After a few months I made an appointment to see an ops inspector at the local FSDO. When I met with him he asked me to show him my logbook reflecting the 25 hours in the left seat, he asked me a few questions, then issued me a new certificate with both SOE's removed. Simple as that, probably took a grand total of 30 minutes.

However, the idea about getting typed twice concurrently to get an SOE removed is not so accurate. In fact, it's highlighted on the FAA website regarding removal of an SOE limitation. Just make the appointment at the FSDO. You'll be in and out in no-time. The ops inspectors are so "airline oriented" it is very rare for them to deal with this. They might even have to look it up themselves.
If a training vendor double SOE'd a pilot cerftificate, they were wrong to do so. Here's the reg. Unless it can be shown differently, I don't see where it calls for the Type to be unrestricted, and as we know all too well, verbage is king with the Federal Gov't and the FAA.

(ii) The applicant must meet at least one of the following:
(A) Hold a type rating for a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought,
or have been appointed by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a type rating in a turbojet airplane is sought.
(B) Hold a type rating for a turbopropeller airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been designated by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a type rating in a turbopropeller airplane is sought.
(C) Have at least 2,000 hours of flight time, of which 500 hours is in turbine-powered airplanes of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought.
(D) Have at least 500 hours of flight time in the same type airplane as the airplane for which the rating is sought.
(E) Have at least 1,000 hours of flight time in at least two different airplanes requiring a type rating.
 

WMUSIGPI

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Interesting... We had Saab pilots upgrade to captain without meeting ANY of those requirements. I believe their only cert limitation was the Circ VMC only. (which everyone gets here on any type here these days) Maybe it's because every captain must do OE with a checkairman as part of FAR121 requirements so they don't bother to put that SOE limitation on.
 

Pickle

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Interesting... We had Saab pilots upgrade to captain without meeting ANY of those requirements. I believe their only cert limitation was the Circ VMC only. (which everyone gets here on any type here these days) Maybe it's because every captain must do OE with a checkairman as part of FAR121 requirements so they don't bother to put that SOE limitation on.

That is exactly why. 121 is covered in other ways.
 
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