So What Is It USAir East Wants?

[grog_sit_reserv]

True Dogwood, but we can't bid over to fly those new planes. Every answer leads to another unfair situation.

This is a goatrope.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Grog and others, this case is over and final. ALPA has no choice but to defend this award as per section 45 of the policy. There will be no deals now after the fact!! Their MEC and merger committee drove this and they knew all to well the consequences of going to a third party.

NO DEALS NO WAY....

WD.

 

[Hpilot]

Longer fences is fine, but the AAA MEC is yelling about the outrageous placement of the F'd guys below Dave and are exploring options to decert ALPA.

What is the AAA position. If AWA agreed to longer fences would that stop this?

You're willingness to negotiate is commendable, but the arbitration is binding and final. The decision is done and cowering to their threats is like caving to terrorists. It is dangerous and it won't stop them. If you're talking about adding fences to the joint contract that's fine, as long as it's an addition to the arbitration and does not contradict it.

 

[regionaltard]

Anyways, as to the original question, dunno. Heard many different things thrown out there. I guess the best one I've heard is put fences in the contract. On both sides. When Mr. Odell upgrades, they come down around phx/las. When arbitrary guy on the east upgrades, they come down on the east side. So then you have both sides benefiting from the future retirements they brought to the table, and each side gets what they would have gotten, given both sides stayed static and operating in their own right. Get a decent contract, and any growth is fair game for either side.

A very reasonable argument. Too bad it wasn't made to the neutral, or for that matter, across the bargaining table before the thing went to arbitration in the first place. What the East pilots want is two bites from the apple, and that's just not how things work.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Guys, I know its final. But the East wants to sink the company and put 35,000+ people out of work. ALPA won't lift a finger on this, I agree; but Parker might be worried that this will destroy all the progress USAir has made financially. He might be trying to find a way to mediate the agreement beyond the aribiter's decision.

So, what to do?

 

[FLYLOW22]

I don't really know what will happen but I know that 2 things HAVE happened already in response to this "award":

1) stand down of the SPC

2) no more merger assesments

This shows me, more than anything else, that the East is not contributing and resources to actually combining the company or fighting for one contract any time soon.

I think Rock, Paper, Scissors might have had a better effect than the Nicolau award.

 

[Hpilot]

Guys, I know its final. But the East wants to sink the company and put 35,000+ people out of work. ALPA won't lift a finger on this, I agree; but Parker might be worried that this will destroy all the progress USAir has made financially. He might be trying to find a way to mediate the agreement beyond the aribiter's decision.

So, what to do?

Why do you think Parker's looking for another merger partner. Another certificate?(wink wink) Bye bye US Airways.

 

[flypixs]

Why do you think Parker's looking for another merger partner. Another certificate?(wink wink) Bye bye US Airways.

Very true. The AAA MEC is going to run the company down the drain. They are in so much pain right now, I don't even think they know where to burn bridges first. Just keep on diiging the whole east boys, I'll put the cross on top.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Guys, I know its final. But the East wants to sink the company and put 35,000+ people out of work. ALPA won't lift a finger on this, I agree; but Parker might be worried that this will destroy all the progress USAir has made financially. He might be trying to find a way to mediate the agreement beyond the aribiter's decision.

So, what to do?

Grog AKA G money , the ones who are on these web boards are the vocal minority and may not be the general feeling of the majority. In any event we have to move on. Each day we dwell on this the Parker's and Kirby's of the world get stronger and richer. I want my pockets lined at some point as well.

WD.

 

[Green]

. If you're talking about adding fences to the joint contract that's fine, as long as it's an addition to the arbitration and does not contradict it.

with all due respede WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You want to voluntarily add fences to the joint contract? How have the last two years treated you? We have completely stagnated out west because there has been a fence (in the form of seperate certificates) preventing us from accessing any growth out east. Now that's about to come down you want to give that up?????????

What happens if you throw a fence in the contract and then Parker decides LAS or PHX is just too competitive to make money and he redeploys a large portion of the fleet back east. We don't get furloughed but end up stagnating on reserve while east guys would benefit massively from a fenced base.....

Don't give an inch who knows what kind of deals/mergers are coming down the pipe and bidding PHL might actually somehow help you out someday.

 

[Crzipilot]

So uhmm....your excited at the fact that there is no growth opptys in the west, and now with a combined seniority list, your closer to realizing, being able to take advantage of the growth on the east??? Can't put a finger on it, but it sounds like double talk to me....

 

[Hpilot]

with all due respede WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You want to voluntarily add fences to the joint contract? How have the last two years treated you? We have completely stagnated out west because there has been a fence (in the form of seperate certificates) preventing us from accessing any growth out east. Now that's about to come down you want to give that up?????????

What happens if you throw a fence in the contract and then Parker decides LAS or PHX is just too competitive to make money and he redeploys a large portion of the fleet back east. We don't get furloughed but end up stagnating on reserve while east guys would benefit massively from a fenced base.....

Don't give an inch who knows what kind of deals/mergers are coming down the pipe and bidding PHL might actually somehow help you out someday.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I probably didn't say it correctly. I don't feel longer fences would be fair and I would fight against them. Yes the merger has screwed me for the last two years. I went from a 5 yr upgrade to 5 yrs of reserve. What I was speaking of was the possibility and legality of adding them. The East MEC is giving out the false hope that the arbitration itself can be changed. It can't.

 

[Hpilot]

So uhmm....your excited at the fact that there is no growth opptys in the west, and now with a combined seniority list, your closer to realizing, being able to take advantage of the growth on the east??? Can't put a finger on it, but it sounds like double talk to me....

I believe he is referring to "career expectations". The last two years have been a windfall for the East and a total screw job for the West.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

You're right Whiskey, as usual... I've had enough of this fight; anyway nothing is getting solved.

I'll just wait for the next development like everyone else and hope it doesn't spell the end of the airline any time too soon.

Think I'll go spend some time in the cave and calm the f**k down for a while.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

You're right Whiskey, as usual... I've had enough of this fight; anyway nothing is getting solved.

I'll just wait for the next development like everyone else and hope it doesn't spell the end of the airline any time too soon.

Think I'll go spend some time in the cave and calm the f**k down for a while.

It's all good Grog, in fact some news will be headed your way this evening...

WD.

 

[bigtexpilot]

So uhmm....your excited at the fact that there is no growth opptys in the west, and now with a combined seniority list, your closer to realizing, being able to take advantage of the growth on the east??? Can't put a finger on it, but it sounds like double talk to me....

I think everyone has missed the point. It is called "binding arbitration". Doesn't that really mean "legal arbitration".

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

God help us Whiskey

 

[Green]

You misunderstood what I was saying. I probably didn't say it correctly. I don't feel longer fences would be fair and I would fight against them. Yes the merger has screwed me for the last two years. I went from a 5 yr upgrade to 5 yrs of reserve. What I was speaking of was the possibility and legality of adding them. The East MEC is giving out the false hope that the arbitration itself can be changed. It can't.

I do apologize. I've been hearing a few AWA pilots on various boards say it's a good idea to voluntarily throw up fences around east coast bases in order to appease the east. I think that's a terrible idea. I mis-understood your post and thought you were advocating that scenario.

 

[FDJ2]

put it into perspective. 2015 there are 2046 Capt retirements. (that's a combined retirement, but majority from east) Or at least those "currently" holding capt. So yes, many are from the f/o ranks, but those f/o's would have moved to capt, and such would be retiring as capt. An individual made up some nice spreadsheets for the combined list, very telling as you change the dates.....

The expectation was that the east would see significant retirements by 2015 with commensurate advancement for junior pilots, however those expectations are grounded on an expectation that US would survive until then without any additional reduction in hulls and the age 60 rule would remain.

JMO. Relative seniority with longer fences should have been either negotiated or brought forward to the arbitrator as the main focus of the US position.

 

[Crzipilot]

so what's the news???