So What Is It USAir East Wants?

[AutoBus]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

In 15 years most of the west (including me) will be retired.

As far as fairness, I was a few dozen numbers from upgrade back in 2005, on the arbitrators list (two years later) I'm even further from it so I'm NOT FEELING LIKE I GOT MUCH OF A WINDFALL!

 

[AutoBus]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

An if management decides to put 20 more aircraft in PHL, now who get's the so-called windfall?

 

[PositiveRate]

Everyone needs to read this again - written by an East furloughee who actually gets it....

'You have to explain to me why the West guys should fall on their sword because the East guys didn't get better than RELATIVE SENIORITY. It was the East MEC and the East negotiating comittee the did this to us not the west pilots or the arbitrator. Both sides had a chance to negotiate a settlement but BOTH sides chose to go to an arbitration.

As a furloughed east pilot I was never planning on returning to U, If the recall came then I would look at it but U has had a long history of furlough and bankrupcy. Its a vicious cycle that has led to 22+ year first officers. It's not the west pilots (Young pilot group) fault that they were "merged" with the East which has to have the oldest pilot group in the industry.

I also think the attrition arguement is weak due to the fact that for the years prior to the merger U was not replacing the retiring pilots, they were parking airplanes. With no plans for emergence from bankrupcy. SWA was salivating over PHL and the east 73s. How long do you think it was going to take for SWA to offer big bucks to the East creditors for those assets? I would assume pilots would have not those airplanes."

Grog - no fences, no way!

Again, this is a flawed argument that takes into account the post merger reality for US East is drastically different. Your attrition meant squat pre-merger. Post merger, we all play in the same sandbox....No spreadsheat or spin can change this. This is simply a group of pilots wanting to take merger created value all for themselves.

All this talk about negotiating a fair solution via base fences is crap anyways...didn't the East stand down their SPC and JNC committees. Unbelievable. It's like fighting just for the sake of fighting.

 

[Dogwood]

An if management decides to put 20 more aircraft in PHL, now who get's the so-called windfall?

Easy answer. Any block hours greater than as of the merger date, are open to both sides. Not very hard at all to track.

 

[FDJ2]

The AWA pilots did not bring attrition.

When a US Air guy retires a US Air guy gets the vacancy. AWA gets AWA vacancy just like both groups had prior to the merger.

Widebodies the same. No pilot at US Airways had an expectation of flying a 777 out of ATL prior to the Delta offer and neither did an AWA pilot have a 330 expectation at US Airways. A fence of a little longer than 4 years would be acceptable, not a permanent ban or anything, just a bit longer.

You bring up a very good point which ought to have been the main argument the East made to the arbitrator. Unfortunately, when you emphasize an argument that has little merit, such as a length of service argument, then you come across as obstinate when compared to a more reasonable ratio integration argued by the west. The arbitrator will then naturally lean more towards the more reasonable position.

If the east had gone along with a ratio integration argument with fences for their heavy equipment and adjustments to the advance entitlement procedures, so that it would acknowledge the disparity in attrition, there may have been a more palatable outcome for them.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

True Dogwood, but we can't bid over to fly those new planes. Every answer leads to another unfair situation.

This is a goatrope.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Grog and others, this case is over and final. ALPA has no choice but to defend this award as per section 45 of the policy. There will be no deals now after the fact!! Their MEC and merger committee drove this and they knew all to well the consequences of going to a third party.

NO DEALS NO WAY....

WD.

 

[Hpilot]

Longer fences is fine, but the AAA MEC is yelling about the outrageous placement of the F'd guys below Dave and are exploring options to decert ALPA.

What is the AAA position. If AWA agreed to longer fences would that stop this?

You're willingness to negotiate is commendable, but the arbitration is binding and final. The decision is done and cowering to their threats is like caving to terrorists. It is dangerous and it won't stop them. If you're talking about adding fences to the joint contract that's fine, as long as it's an addition to the arbitration and does not contradict it.

 

[regionaltard]

Anyways, as to the original question, dunno. Heard many different things thrown out there. I guess the best one I've heard is put fences in the contract. On both sides. When Mr. Odell upgrades, they come down around phx/las. When arbitrary guy on the east upgrades, they come down on the east side. So then you have both sides benefiting from the future retirements they brought to the table, and each side gets what they would have gotten, given both sides stayed static and operating in their own right. Get a decent contract, and any growth is fair game for either side.

A very reasonable argument. Too bad it wasn't made to the neutral, or for that matter, across the bargaining table before the thing went to arbitration in the first place. What the East pilots want is two bites from the apple, and that's just not how things work.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Guys, I know its final. But the East wants to sink the company and put 35,000+ people out of work. ALPA won't lift a finger on this, I agree; but Parker might be worried that this will destroy all the progress USAir has made financially. He might be trying to find a way to mediate the agreement beyond the aribiter's decision.

So, what to do?

 

[FLYLOW22]

I don't really know what will happen but I know that 2 things HAVE happened already in response to this "award":

1) stand down of the SPC

2) no more merger assesments

This shows me, more than anything else, that the East is not contributing and resources to actually combining the company or fighting for one contract any time soon.

I think Rock, Paper, Scissors might have had a better effect than the Nicolau award.

 

[Hpilot]

Guys, I know its final. But the East wants to sink the company and put 35,000+ people out of work. ALPA won't lift a finger on this, I agree; but Parker might be worried that this will destroy all the progress USAir has made financially. He might be trying to find a way to mediate the agreement beyond the aribiter's decision.

So, what to do?

Why do you think Parker's looking for another merger partner. Another certificate?(wink wink) Bye bye US Airways.

 

[flypixs]

Why do you think Parker's looking for another merger partner. Another certificate?(wink wink) Bye bye US Airways.

Very true. The AAA MEC is going to run the company down the drain. They are in so much pain right now, I don't even think they know where to burn bridges first. Just keep on diiging the whole east boys, I'll put the cross on top.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Guys, I know its final. But the East wants to sink the company and put 35,000+ people out of work. ALPA won't lift a finger on this, I agree; but Parker might be worried that this will destroy all the progress USAir has made financially. He might be trying to find a way to mediate the agreement beyond the aribiter's decision.

So, what to do?

Grog AKA G money , the ones who are on these web boards are the vocal minority and may not be the general feeling of the majority. In any event we have to move on. Each day we dwell on this the Parker's and Kirby's of the world get stronger and richer. I want my pockets lined at some point as well.

WD.

 

[Green]

. If you're talking about adding fences to the joint contract that's fine, as long as it's an addition to the arbitration and does not contradict it.

with all due respede WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You want to voluntarily add fences to the joint contract? How have the last two years treated you? We have completely stagnated out west because there has been a fence (in the form of seperate certificates) preventing us from accessing any growth out east. Now that's about to come down you want to give that up?????????

What happens if you throw a fence in the contract and then Parker decides LAS or PHX is just too competitive to make money and he redeploys a large portion of the fleet back east. We don't get furloughed but end up stagnating on reserve while east guys would benefit massively from a fenced base.....

Don't give an inch who knows what kind of deals/mergers are coming down the pipe and bidding PHL might actually somehow help you out someday.