So What Is It USAir East Wants?

[grog_sit_reserv]

OK. We know you think the award was unfair, so; what is your proposal? How can this list be combined to make AAA whole?

Honestly, I'll give it a rest for a while, if you'll tell me what you are hoping to realistically achieve when the dust settles.

What is a reasonable proposal to merge these lists that both sides can deal with? We know DOH won't work (even the arbiter agreed with us on that), so what now?

 

[Fast43]

OK. We know you think the award was unfair, so; what is your proposal? How can this list be combined to make AAA whole?

Honestly, I'll give it a rest for a while, if you'll tell me what you are hoping to realistically achieve when the dust settles.

What is a reasonable proposal to merge these lists that both sides can deal with? We know DOH won't work (even the arbiter agreed with us on that), so what now?

Your Diplomacy is commendable!!

However you should realize that the people you are talking to are bringing new meaning to unreasonable. (massive understatement). It was massive efforts to negotiate with them that were continously laughed at.

(don't worry son we have done this before and this is how far we will stick it in and you will have to deal with it, It is us that saved you etc.)

and now they want to negotiate with us to fix something that they brought on themselves.

They should catch a clue!!!

 

[steveg]

Ummmm,

Why does it matter? Who cares? Negotiations were supposed to happen a year ago. You know, before we went into "binding arbitration"? Apparently nobody told the East side what "binding" meant. Sadly, instead of realizing how lucky they are to even have a process, they want to destroy everything because they did not get their way.

 

[Green]

deal with it guys....there are not going to be any giveaways. If you're stuck in the right seat then the best course of action is to fight for a contract which pays fo's at least 125/hr and you'll end up with LOA 93 captain pay as an fo. Maybe i sound harsh and insensitive but that is the reality of our situation.

I just think it's rich how AAA wanted to literally staple our airline and now that they didn't get their way there is all this talk of "ok guys looks like we have to negotiate something here...." yeah right...You tried to completely f#ck over the bottom half of our list and now you want to negotiate after the game is over. What did Arnie Gentile say "Rife with injustice from the top to the bottom..." ?? Yeah the top 500 slots going to a dead carrier sure sounds like a screwjob.

I wonder after 20-30 years in this industry shouldn't you know the meaning of binding arbitration? My only guess is that the AAA pilots figure if they scream loud enough and throw out enough threats then maybe AWA will be dumb enough to give something away. Maybe if our JNC was running the show but our MC is rock solid. not gonna happen.

Your MEC is doing a great injustice to AAA pilots by spreading the notion the ruling can be overturned.

 

[Crzipilot]

Hmm...haven't read EVERY hotline etc....but not sure if they have said that it can be OVERTURNED. I believe they are saying that it's their duty, to present to the EC their reasons etc, as to why they think it didn't follow ALPA protocol. Which you can't blame them for that, as if the tables were turned the AWA side would be in the same position.

Anyways, as to the original question, dunno. Heard many different things thrown out there. I guess the best one I've heard is put fences in the contract. On both sides. When Mr. Odell upgrades, they come down around phx/las. When arbitrary guy on the east upgrades, they come down on the east side. So then you have both sides benefiting from the future retirements they brought to the table, and each side gets what they would have gotten, given both sides stayed static and operating in their own right. Get a decent contract, and any growth is fair game for either side.

 

[johnnyb]

For me, at least, a little consistency would be nice. If you are going to staple furloughed pilots to the bottom because they didn't bring a job to the merger then stay with that rationale.

The AWA pilots did not bring attrition.

When a US Air guy retires a US Air guy gets the vacancy. AWA gets AWA vacancy just like both groups had prior to the merger.

Widebodies the same. No pilot at US Airways had an expectation of flying a 777 out of ATL prior to the Delta offer and neither did an AWA pilot have a 330 expectation at US Airways. A fence of a little longer than 4 years would be acceptable, not a permanent ban or anything, just a bit longer.

 

[BenderGonzales]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

 

[Dogwood]

OK. We know you think the award was unfair, so; what is your proposal? How can this list be combined to make AAA whole?

Honestly, I'll give it a rest for a while, if you'll tell me what you are hoping to realistically achieve when the dust settles.

What is a reasonable proposal to merge these lists that both sides can deal with? We know DOH won't work (even the arbiter agreed with us on that), so what now?

Just a guess, but I think they (we) would like to have some protection for the east attrition for the next 8-10 years.

Had US Airways (east) just stagnated, those retirements would still have happened.

The massive retirements has been the carrot that has kept some hope in the more jr folks. They lost their pension, and this was the way they could rebuild it a little before they retired.

This arbitration award, pulled that little bit of hope that was left.

My opinion is that both east and west upgrades due to retirements should be protected for a period of 10 years, and future growth as a result of the merger should be available to both parties.

Easier said than done, but this is probably the big issue.

Nobody has a crystal ball to determine what "Might have been" without the merger. Maybe AWA saved US Airways or maybe the opposite is true. Who knows, and who really cares.

The end result is that there must me some type of meeting of the minds on this, or there will be a very rough road ahead.

If the west pilots have the attitude that, "too bad guys, that's the way the cookie crumbles", and are not willing to include a few protections, then it's going to be a tough place to work.

I don't have a big problem with the list construction, but rather the lack of protections for both sides.

Just my opinion.

DW
DOH - 1988 (Furloughed)

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Longer fences is fine, but the AAA MEC is yelling about the outrageous placement of the F'd guys below Dave and are exploring options to decert ALPA.

What is the AAA position. If AWA agreed to longer fences would that stop this?

 

[Doug Parker]

.


IT IS OVER - the list is out - STFU and get back to work.

There was plenty of opportunity to Negotiate before and AAA did not want to pursue that avenue....................

Let's not forget that a lot of the ATTRITION is from the RIGHT seat...........


.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well now remember, AAA MEC has always ate it's young. Now lo and behold they are standing up for the small guy. Uhmmm...maybe that stand is a wolf in sheeps clothing, as if they win for the low guy, they obviously win. I have learned to keep alpa at arms length. The MDA debacle, is a prime example....many individuals refused to admit that MDA was US Air, then it turned out it was.......now they are standing up, fighting for their rights...Hmmm

 

[m80drvr]

If the west pilots have the attitude that, "too bad guys, that's the way the cookie crumbles", and are not willing to include a few protections, then it's going to be a tough place to work.

DOH - 1988 (Furloughed)

You have to explain to me why the West guys should fall on their sword because the East guys didn't get better than RELATIVE SENIORITY. It was the East MEC and the East negotiating comittee the did this to us not the west pilots or the arbitrator. Both sides had a chance to negotiate a settlement but BOTH sides chose to go to an arbitration.

As a furloughed east pilot I was never planning on returning to U, If the recall came then I would look at it but U has had a long history of furlough and bankrupcy. Its a vicious cycle that has led to 22+ year first officers. It's not the west pilots (Young pilot group) fault that they were "merged" with the East which has to have the oldest pilot group in the industry.

I also think the attrition arguement is weak due to the fact that for the years prior to the merger U was not replacing the retiring pilots, they were parking airplanes. With no plans for emergence from bankrupcy. SWA was salivating over PHL and the east 73s. How long do you think it was going to take for SWA to offer big bucks to the East creditors for those assets? I would assume pilots would have not those airplanes.

Just my opinion though

 

[Crzipilot]

put it into perspective. 2015 there are 2046 Capt retirements. (that's a combined retirement, but majority from east) Or at least those "currently" holding capt. So yes, many are from the f/o ranks, but those f/o's would have moved to capt, and such would be retiring as capt. An individual made up some nice spreadsheets for the combined list, very telling as you change the dates.....

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I agree about the retirements, but why didn't Nicolau buy it?

And before I lead this thing off track, I'll restate my question:

The AAA MEC is doing a lot of yelling. What is it they are asking for? All I've seen is notes on outrage and the CIRP notice, threats to Burn it down and give the West the ashes, AAA MEC giving up on contract negotiations while they take care of this egregious injustice, etc.

But, what I haven't heard is any solution from them. What is it AAA wants?

 

[BenderGonzales]

Oh don't get your panties in a wad. You're hearing flightline rumors and message-board ranting. As you very well know, what you read on a message board are the very loud whines of the vocal minority.

There's one clear solution. Co-Captain list from the top to the bottom.

Now if you guys can negotiate THAT... you'll be legendary.

 

[AutoBus]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

In 15 years most of the west (including me) will be retired.

As far as fairness, I was a few dozen numbers from upgrade back in 2005, on the arbitrators list (two years later) I'm even further from it so I'm NOT FEELING LIKE I GOT MUCH OF A WINDFALL!

 

[AutoBus]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

An if management decides to put 20 more aircraft in PHL, now who get's the so-called windfall?

 

[PositiveRate]

Everyone needs to read this again - written by an East furloughee who actually gets it....

'You have to explain to me why the West guys should fall on their sword because the East guys didn't get better than RELATIVE SENIORITY. It was the East MEC and the East negotiating comittee the did this to us not the west pilots or the arbitrator. Both sides had a chance to negotiate a settlement but BOTH sides chose to go to an arbitration.

As a furloughed east pilot I was never planning on returning to U, If the recall came then I would look at it but U has had a long history of furlough and bankrupcy. Its a vicious cycle that has led to 22+ year first officers. It's not the west pilots (Young pilot group) fault that they were "merged" with the East which has to have the oldest pilot group in the industry.

I also think the attrition arguement is weak due to the fact that for the years prior to the merger U was not replacing the retiring pilots, they were parking airplanes. With no plans for emergence from bankrupcy. SWA was salivating over PHL and the east 73s. How long do you think it was going to take for SWA to offer big bucks to the East creditors for those assets? I would assume pilots would have not those airplanes."

Grog - no fences, no way!

Again, this is a flawed argument that takes into account the post merger reality for US East is drastically different. Your attrition meant squat pre-merger. Post merger, we all play in the same sandbox....No spreadsheat or spin can change this. This is simply a group of pilots wanting to take merger created value all for themselves.

All this talk about negotiating a fair solution via base fences is crap anyways...didn't the East stand down their SPC and JNC committees. Unbelievable. It's like fighting just for the sake of fighting.

 

[Dogwood]

An if management decides to put 20 more aircraft in PHL, now who get's the so-called windfall?

Easy answer. Any block hours greater than as of the merger date, are open to both sides. Not very hard at all to track.

 

[FDJ2]

The AWA pilots did not bring attrition.

When a US Air guy retires a US Air guy gets the vacancy. AWA gets AWA vacancy just like both groups had prior to the merger.

Widebodies the same. No pilot at US Airways had an expectation of flying a 777 out of ATL prior to the Delta offer and neither did an AWA pilot have a 330 expectation at US Airways. A fence of a little longer than 4 years would be acceptable, not a permanent ban or anything, just a bit longer.

You bring up a very good point which ought to have been the main argument the East made to the arbitrator. Unfortunately, when you emphasize an argument that has little merit, such as a length of service argument, then you come across as obstinate when compared to a more reasonable ratio integration argued by the west. The arbitrator will then naturally lean more towards the more reasonable position.

If the east had gone along with a ratio integration argument with fences for their heavy equipment and adjustments to the advance entitlement procedures, so that it would acknowledge the disparity in attrition, there may have been a more palatable outcome for them.