So What Is It USAir East Wants?

[Crzipilot]

Well now remember, AAA MEC has always ate it's young. Now lo and behold they are standing up for the small guy. Uhmmm...maybe that stand is a wolf in sheeps clothing, as if they win for the low guy, they obviously win. I have learned to keep alpa at arms length. The MDA debacle, is a prime example....many individuals refused to admit that MDA was US Air, then it turned out it was.......now they are standing up, fighting for their rights...Hmmm

 

[m80drvr]

If the west pilots have the attitude that, "too bad guys, that's the way the cookie crumbles", and are not willing to include a few protections, then it's going to be a tough place to work.

DOH - 1988 (Furloughed)

You have to explain to me why the West guys should fall on their sword because the East guys didn't get better than RELATIVE SENIORITY. It was the East MEC and the East negotiating comittee the did this to us not the west pilots or the arbitrator. Both sides had a chance to negotiate a settlement but BOTH sides chose to go to an arbitration.

As a furloughed east pilot I was never planning on returning to U, If the recall came then I would look at it but U has had a long history of furlough and bankrupcy. Its a vicious cycle that has led to 22+ year first officers. It's not the west pilots (Young pilot group) fault that they were "merged" with the East which has to have the oldest pilot group in the industry.

I also think the attrition arguement is weak due to the fact that for the years prior to the merger U was not replacing the retiring pilots, they were parking airplanes. With no plans for emergence from bankrupcy. SWA was salivating over PHL and the east 73s. How long do you think it was going to take for SWA to offer big bucks to the East creditors for those assets? I would assume pilots would have not those airplanes.

Just my opinion though

 

[Crzipilot]

put it into perspective. 2015 there are 2046 Capt retirements. (that's a combined retirement, but majority from east) Or at least those "currently" holding capt. So yes, many are from the f/o ranks, but those f/o's would have moved to capt, and such would be retiring as capt. An individual made up some nice spreadsheets for the combined list, very telling as you change the dates.....

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I agree about the retirements, but why didn't Nicolau buy it?

And before I lead this thing off track, I'll restate my question:

The AAA MEC is doing a lot of yelling. What is it they are asking for? All I've seen is notes on outrage and the CIRP notice, threats to Burn it down and give the West the ashes, AAA MEC giving up on contract negotiations while they take care of this egregious injustice, etc.

But, what I haven't heard is any solution from them. What is it AAA wants?

 

[BenderGonzales]

Oh don't get your panties in a wad. You're hearing flightline rumors and message-board ranting. As you very well know, what you read on a message board are the very loud whines of the vocal minority.

There's one clear solution. Co-Captain list from the top to the bottom.

Now if you guys can negotiate THAT... you'll be legendary.

 

[AutoBus]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

In 15 years most of the west (including me) will be retired.

As far as fairness, I was a few dozen numbers from upgrade back in 2005, on the arbitrators list (two years later) I'm even further from it so I'm NOT FEELING LIKE I GOT MUCH OF A WINDFALL!

 

[AutoBus]

In 15 years 50% of the USAir (East) seniority list will have retired. So a 10-15 year fence would protect career expectations on both sides.

Just my opinion though, I have no intention of accepting recall.

An if management decides to put 20 more aircraft in PHL, now who get's the so-called windfall?

 

[PositiveRate]

Everyone needs to read this again - written by an East furloughee who actually gets it....

'You have to explain to me why the West guys should fall on their sword because the East guys didn't get better than RELATIVE SENIORITY. It was the East MEC and the East negotiating comittee the did this to us not the west pilots or the arbitrator. Both sides had a chance to negotiate a settlement but BOTH sides chose to go to an arbitration.

As a furloughed east pilot I was never planning on returning to U, If the recall came then I would look at it but U has had a long history of furlough and bankrupcy. Its a vicious cycle that has led to 22+ year first officers. It's not the west pilots (Young pilot group) fault that they were "merged" with the East which has to have the oldest pilot group in the industry.

I also think the attrition arguement is weak due to the fact that for the years prior to the merger U was not replacing the retiring pilots, they were parking airplanes. With no plans for emergence from bankrupcy. SWA was salivating over PHL and the east 73s. How long do you think it was going to take for SWA to offer big bucks to the East creditors for those assets? I would assume pilots would have not those airplanes."

Grog - no fences, no way!

Again, this is a flawed argument that takes into account the post merger reality for US East is drastically different. Your attrition meant squat pre-merger. Post merger, we all play in the same sandbox....No spreadsheat or spin can change this. This is simply a group of pilots wanting to take merger created value all for themselves.

All this talk about negotiating a fair solution via base fences is crap anyways...didn't the East stand down their SPC and JNC committees. Unbelievable. It's like fighting just for the sake of fighting.

 

[Dogwood]

An if management decides to put 20 more aircraft in PHL, now who get's the so-called windfall?

Easy answer. Any block hours greater than as of the merger date, are open to both sides. Not very hard at all to track.

 

[FDJ2]

The AWA pilots did not bring attrition.

When a US Air guy retires a US Air guy gets the vacancy. AWA gets AWA vacancy just like both groups had prior to the merger.

Widebodies the same. No pilot at US Airways had an expectation of flying a 777 out of ATL prior to the Delta offer and neither did an AWA pilot have a 330 expectation at US Airways. A fence of a little longer than 4 years would be acceptable, not a permanent ban or anything, just a bit longer.

You bring up a very good point which ought to have been the main argument the East made to the arbitrator. Unfortunately, when you emphasize an argument that has little merit, such as a length of service argument, then you come across as obstinate when compared to a more reasonable ratio integration argued by the west. The arbitrator will then naturally lean more towards the more reasonable position.

If the east had gone along with a ratio integration argument with fences for their heavy equipment and adjustments to the advance entitlement procedures, so that it would acknowledge the disparity in attrition, there may have been a more palatable outcome for them.