So was B19 right or wrong?

[waka]

I'm not a lunatic.

"I'm not crazy" Charles Manson

:laugh:

I have the exact same opinions of any manager responsible to keep any company in the black that supports the company as a whole and not one specific work group.

No, you don't. There are actually managers that recognize a group's right to organize and willing to work with the union. They know that cooperation and compromise on both sides make the company successful.

You just can't believe that my opinions are that of the majority of employees.

Like the other poster said, you're a lunatic! This is self-delusional as you have ZERO idea as to the opinions of the employees at my company or anyone else's. Unless you can present some scientific polling data, as usual, you're just talking out of your @ss.

Call me all the names you want.. but I'm a valid representative of the majority within your company that don't belong to a union.

Do you think that repeating BS makes it more valid? You have no idea about the opinions of any company but your own.....probably not even your own actually. You're not a valid anything.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Hahahahahahahahaaaaaa

Guess that answers the question of this thread. WRONG

 

[fly4funcrj]

SWA seems to come to mind. They have a union and have worked with mgmt (for the most part). In return, just about everyone there seems happy AND SWA has posted 30+ years of profits.

 

[gutshotdraw]

It was made quite obvious today that our friend is wrong. Dead wrong. On many counts. But he will NEVER admit it. Happy trails 19.

 

[B19 Flyer]

SWA seems to come to mind. They have a union and have worked with mgmt (for the most part). In return, just about everyone there seems happy AND SWA has posted 30+ years of profits.

You can't use the SWA contract as an example. Nobody else has had the courage to attempt it because it's so closely tied to profit sharing. No profit, no sharing, low pay. Instead, most union contracts want the money up front so there is no "giving" back when things are not good. The SWA is one of the few out there that actually works because it flows with the business.

 

[B19 Flyer]

:laugh:



No, you don't. There are actually managers that recognize a group's right to organize and willing to work with the union. They know that cooperation and compromise on both sides make the company successful.

No, you are 100% wrong. There is no manager on the face of the earth that wants a union on the property, but once it's on the property you need to deal with it so they do. Just because they smile and go along with it doesn't mean they like it.

Like the other poster said, you're a lunatic! This is self-delusional as you have ZERO idea as to the opinions of the employees at my company or anyone else's. Unless you can present some scientific polling data, as usual, you're just talking out of your @ss.

I don't need to provide evidence. It's all around you. The near billion dollar loss and 500 furloughs at NJ is enough in the fractional industry alone. How many airlines have gone away in recent years through mergers because the labor cost structure was simply too high to maintain and there was no flexibility in it beacuse of union contracts? How many of those "Industry Leading Contracts" still exist that were signed by the majors back in '99 and 00? None of them. How many pilots have taken huge hits on their retirements as a result of union greed?

Do you think that repeating BS makes it more valid? You have no idea about the opinions of any company but your own.....probably not even your own actually. You're not a valid anything.

And the last thing I care about is validating anything to you or anybody else. I do know the opinions of management throughout the industry. I had to manage silently in a union enviornment even though I had suffered greatly due to union intervention financially. I was actually regarded as one of the "easier" managers to work with. I'm no different than any other manager whos hands are tied by the greed of a union contract. It's nice to be able to say now what I could never before. I've witnessed the reality of unions, and it's not pretty.

....................

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yes, you did fail as a pilot and you're a failure now at presenting the anti union opinion as a lame mid level manager.


Yep, in your usual fashion, you dodge the question and/or request for proof to your lunacy, obfuscate and hope nobody calls you out, AGAIN.

This is how you approach life. This is why you're a failure.

Actually, I didn't fail as a pilot, and I'm not a mid level manager. I've got the guts to state the truth that you can't accept because you let your union speak for you. Nobody has ever spoken for me. My "lunacy" is your reality, because it's management like me that keep you safe each and every day.... not your beloved union.

 

[wacoflyr]

How many pilots have taken huge hits on their retirements as a result of union greed?


Sometimes I agree with you B19, but this is too much. US Air, Northwest, and United retirees lost their retirements because of "strategic" bankruptcies by management, who then granted themselves huge bonuses. In other words, they stole the money. In any moral society, the managers of those companies would be in jail. There's greed for you. But you knew that. Once again, your unwillingness to see that the other side has a point has cost you credibility. You have valid points, but you make them badly.

 

[lowspeed]

Actually, I didn't fail as a pilot, and I'm not a mid level manager. I've got the guts to state the truth that you can't accept because you let your union speak for you. Nobody has ever spoken for me. My "lunacy" is your reality, because it's management like me that keep you safe each and every day.... not your beloved union.

I dont think anyone cares more about safety than pilots. Isnt one big reason for a union to prevent management from pushing timid pilots into unsafe situations.

 

[gret]

How many pilots have taken huge hits on their retirements as a result of union greed?


Sometimes I agree with you B19, but this is too much. US Air, Northwest, and United retirees lost their retirements because of "strategic" bankruptcies by management, who then granted themselves huge bonuses. In other words, they stole the money. In any moral society, the managers of those companies would be in jail. There's greed for you. But you knew that. Once again, your unwillingness to see that the other side has a point has cost you credibility. You have valid points, but you make them badly.

From the NYTimes-

United was emblematic of the airlines' ephemeral prosperity. In the late 1990's, it reported $4 billion in profits, and its route map, stretching over four continents, was the envy of the industry. Most strikingly, it had ventured a daring solution to the industry's thorniest problem -- labor -- by selling a majority of its stock to its employees.

But despite this groundbreaking arrangement, United was never able to fully align the interests of its employees, particularly the pilots, with its own. Rick Dubinsky, longtime head of the AirLine Pilots Association at United, made this clear when he and Goodwin began a recent wage negotiation. ''We don't want to kill the golden goose,'' Dubinsky told Goodwin. ''We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg.''
​

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/17/magazine/into-thin-air.html?pagewanted=2

 

[wacoflyr]

From the NYTimes-

United was emblematic of the airlines' ephemeral prosperity. In the late 1990's, it reported $4 billion in profits, and its route map, stretching over four continents, was the envy of the industry. Most strikingly, it had ventured a daring solution to the industry's thorniest problem -- labor -- by selling a majority of its stock to its employees.

But despite this groundbreaking arrangement, United was never able to fully align the interests of its employees, particularly the pilots, with its own. Rick Dubinsky, longtime head of the AirLine Pilots Association at United, made this clear when he and Goodwin began a recent wage negotiation. ''We don't want to kill the golden goose,'' Dubinsky told Goodwin. ''We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg.''
​

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/17/magazine/into-thin-air.html?pagewanted=2

Point taken. I guess greed is not limited to management. I can admit when I was wrong. Can you, B19?

 

[gret]

Point taken. I guess greed is not limited to management. I can admit when I was wrong. Can you, B19?

Waco...you are a standup person and deserve respect!

 

[waka]

Actually, I didn't fail as a pilot, and I'm not a mid level manager. I've got the guts to state the truth that you can't accept because you let your union speak for you. Nobody has ever spoken for me. My "lunacy" is your reality, because it's management like me that keep you safe each and every day.... not your beloved union.

Any "pilot" that thinks that safety of flight is ultimately up to management is a failure, period. This, along with your overeating, made you a failure as a pilot.

Have you ever heard of a Safety Committee? How about a Professional Standards Committee? When you first brought up this BS about management keeping pilots safe, you were told several times about how FLOPS management pushed pilots to fly fatigued and fly broken airplanes. You were told FLOPS management resisted the ASAP program that the UNION'S safety committee was instrumental with. However, in typical B19 cowardly style, you skirted the point and attempted to obfuscate.

"Guts"? Ha! You're a coward.

 

[waka]

.........

..Like the other poster said, you're a lunatic! This is self-delusional as you have ZERO idea as to the opinions of the employees at my company or anyone else's. Unless you can present some scientific polling data, as usual, you're just talking out of your @ss.

I don't need to provide evidence. It's all around you. The near billion dollar loss and 500 furloughs at NJ is enough in the
fractional industry alone. How many airlines have gone away in recent years through mergers because the labor cost structure was simply too high to maintain and there was no flexibility in it beacuse of union contracts? How many of those "Industry Leading Contracts" still exist that were signed by the majors back in '99 and 00? None of them. How many pilots have taken huge hits on their retirements as a result of union greed?.........

Predictable. I knew you can't back up what you say. You never have and never will. Everything you say on this board is talking out of your ass.

I'll give you one thing; At least you're consistent......consistently an idiot.

 

[dime line]

Actually, I didn't fail as a pilot, and I'm not a mid level manager. I've got the guts to state the truth that you can't accept because you let your union speak for you. Nobody has ever spoken for me. My "lunacy" is your reality, because it's management like me that keep you safe each and every day.... not your beloved union.

Yea, for the last 4 years we let our company speak for us, and so many owners have left the program that were 700 pilots shorter. But I guess that was the unions fault.......oh wait we didn't have a union at that time.