So much for the huge growth rumor at SW

[meanstreak]

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/sto...-year.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

 

[shootr]

This has no short-term effect on AT guys in regard to the proposed deal. This hurts senior FO's currently flying for SWA bigtime. It SHOULDN'T affect the AT vote but I think it WILL affect the SWA vote. FWIW...

shootr

 

[madjack]

10 year FO here, won't affect my vote at all...

On a side note...just wondering if AT can make money with the new improved SWA pay rates and NO bag fees??

SWA could decide at any time to grow if fuel/economy improve...we have to grow eventually to bring the costs down...

 

[jonjuan]

This has no short-term effect on AT guys in regard to the proposed deal.

It does if it means capacity reduction and furloughs going into a severe recession/depression. No one is immune.

 

[madjack]

JJ,

Doesn't SL9 improve AAI furlough protection 1:1 SWA/AAI?

 

[carpediem]

Madjack, I'm getting tired of picking up after you. The furlough would be a junior SWA fo for a relative senior AAI fo. That's not furlough protection!

 

[Lear70]

JJ,

Doesn't SL9 improve AAI furlough protection 1:1 SWA/AAI?

No. Only AFTER the AAI pilots are on the SWA side of the house. Until Complete Operational Integration, the full effects of the changes to Sec 22 in SL9 don't exist.

Unless all the junior people go over there first, there wouldn't be enough people on your side of the fence for SL9 to result in any furloughs, and per SL8 they'd all be on our side.

The 2nd quarter report certainly DOES affect the pilots of AAI unless the 4-party agreement can clear up some items such as this, and others, regarding integration and bringing the pilots over with the planes in a specific staffing model. Zero to NEGATIVE capacity numbers next year? The only way to do that is to park more -300's than they're taking on -700's and -800's. Simple seat math.

You guys may be right about no growth, which means the huge seniority hit lasts 10-15 years instead of 7-10. Big difference.

 

[Splert]

AAI relative seniority was worth $ZZZ.ZZ

SWAPA relative seniority is worth 1.A X $ZZZ.ZZ

Where "A" equals the difference in contract value.

For an FO the difference was probably about 9 and a CA about 5.

Seniority at AAI was worth less and that is why you are giving up "seniority".

Can't have it all ladies.

 

[madjack]

Madjack, I'm getting tired of picking up after you. The furlough would be a junior SWA fo for a relative senior AAI fo. That's not furlough protection!

Not true: post snap shot hires, than one for one starting with JUNIOR AAI FO and then Junior SWA FO...

Certainly no loss for the AAI FOs since pre acquisition they would have been 100% AAI Furlough from the bottom...

please don't talk to me about longevity of the furloughees...as a 2001 hire at SWA I could be pulling gear for a 2004-5 AAI CP...we all have our cross to bear...

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

Interesting..he said the same thing last year...




SLC

 

[On Your Six]

This has no short-term effect on AT guys in regard to the proposed deal. This hurts senior FO's currently flying for SWA bigtime. It SHOULDN'T affect the AT vote but I think it WILL affect the SWA vote. FWIW...

shootr

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. AT MEC, send it back!!!


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

No. Only AFTER the AAI pilots are on the SWA side of the house. Until Complete Operational Integration, the full effects of the changes to Sec 22 in SL9 don't exist.

Unless all the junior people go over there first, there wouldn't be enough people on your side of the fence for SL9 to result in any furloughs, and per SL8 they'd all be on our side.

The 2nd quarter report certainly DOES affect the pilots of AAI unless the 4-party agreement can clear up some items such as this, and others, regarding integration and bringing the pilots over with the planes in a specific staffing model. Zero to NEGATIVE capacity numbers next year? The only way to do that is to park more -300's than they're taking on -700's and -800's. Simple seat math.

You guys may be right about no growth, which means the huge seniority hit lasts 10-15 years instead of 7-10. Big difference.

Lear,

There will be plenty of economic dips and capacity cuts and additions, but seniority is FOREVER. High pay may also come and go. Don't accept a turd sandwich if you don't have to. Have your MEC turn it down, and go for a better deal. The current one isn't that good at all.



OYS

 

[Skybus]

Six,

Absolutely right. Send it back and see how thats gonna work for them. First I suggest you refresh yourself on SW history.

 

[Daddy]

If Gary was thinking furloughs, don't you think he would just deal the 717's and not take on a bunch of new employees?

 

[freightdogfred]

Madjack, I'm getting tired of picking up after you. The furlough would be a junior SWA fo for a relative senior AAI fo. That's not furlough protection!

Not true: post snap shot hires, than one for one starting with JUNIOR AAI FO and then Junior SWA FO...

Certainly no loss for the AAI FOs since pre acquisition they would have been 100% AAI Furlough from the bottom...

please don't talk to me about longevity of the furloughees...as a 2001 hire at SWA I could be pulling gear for a 2004-5 AAI CP...we all have our cross to bear...

And a 2002 Ca will have a 2006 SW FO senior to him is fair...

Maybe if you are nice the 2004 AAI CA will let you touch the tiller to make you feel better.

 

[On Your Six]

Six,

Absolutely right. Send it back and see how thats gonna work for them. First I suggest you refresh yourself on SW history.

Shallow threats. SWA VPs are currently trying to integrate and streamline operations for an SOC early next year. (read that in an article today). It's too late, you have already gone past the point of no return. Were you at this stage with the Frontier merger when GK dropped it? Nope. Looks like YOU may need to brush up on SWA history.


OYS

 

[Empennage]

Shallow threats. SWA VPs are currently trying to integrate and streamline operations for an SOC early next year. (read that in an article today). It's too late, you have already gone past the point of no return. Were you at this stage with the Frontier merger when GK dropped it? Nope. Looks like YOU may need to brush up on SWA history.


OYS

Oys, what merger you talking about? Speaking of brushing up ...

 

[On Your Six]

Oys, what merger you talking about? Speaking of brushing up ...

GK called that one a merger too. Brush brush!


OYS

 

[madjack]

And a 2002 Ca will have a 2006 SW FO senior to him is fair...

Hey Freight, I am not sure how I would feel if I were you...I was never at AAI under your shi**y management and your lousy pay and work rules...I was insulated by all that crap at SWA and I believe that is worth something as far as lifespan and piece of mind goes...take it to arby, get a better result (I think you would based on precedent), and let SWAPA and GK (OBTW two of the three parties in the negotiations that came up with this AIP) deal with the fallout...that is a great way to say F(*& you to your new company and union...but what do you expect from ALPA AAI?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Six,

Absolutely right. Send it back and see how thats gonna work for them. First I suggest you refresh yourself on SW history.

He wants it rejected in hopes of keeping SWA out of DAL's backyard. He's only concerned with himself, and not the AirTran pilot group. Don't be fooled by him.

 

[Muppets]

And a 2002 Ca will have a 2006 SW FO senior to him is fair...

Hey Freight, I am not sure how I would feel if I were you...I was never at AAI under your shi**y management and your lousy pay and work rules...I was insulated by all that crap at SWA and I believe that is worth something as far as lifespan and piece of mind goes...take it to arby, get a better result (I think you would based on precedent), and let SWAPA and GK (OBTW two of the three parties in the negotiations that came up with this AIP) deal with the fallout...that is a great way to say F(*& you to your new company and union...but what do you expect from ALPA AAI?

I get the feeling that many of the SWA guys on here are taking this waaayyyy too personally. Its just business...not personal. We are not trying to "F" our new union or company. Just looking for the best deal in a 3 billion dollar deal. I realize you are mostly pilots and not the business type, but come on......some of you wouldnt last a minute outside the aviation bubble. Just my opnion.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

GenLee/OYS is pissed because the AAI guys are about to make more than he does. Flying 115 seat narrow bodies at that.

 

[canyonblue]

Delta sucks.uke:

 

[On Your Six]

He wants it rejected in hopes of keeping SWA out of DAL's backyard. He's only concerned with himself, and not the AirTran pilot group. Don't be fooled by him.

And you are??? Can I personally keep SWA out of ATL? You think so I guess. I just want some of these cocky SWA guys on FI to play fair. Have fun at ASA.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

GenLee/OYS is pissed because the AAI guys are about to make more than he does. Flying 115 seat narrow bodies at that.

Yes, that could be true for awhile about the pay, but if they accept this turd of an agreement, they will still be FOs while I upgrade to widebody Captain within 10 years due to our huge retirement numbers. SWA will have a paltry 150 people leaving a year, which means stagnation. The DL pilots also get a new contract within the next couple years, and that coupled with retirements means you will be miserable. I hope those AT MEC guys reject your poor offer and go for more, as they should if they don't like it.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Delta sucks.uke:

I can't wait to see what the AT guys do next here. Will you be the next USAir? Maybe....


OYS

 

[dicko]

I upgrade to widebody Captain within 10 years due to our huge retirement numbers.OYS

The Reality

-A DAL widebody Captain on reserve will make less than a SWA/Airtran First Officer.

-They make less than a current AirTran CA flying a 717.

-They will make far less than a Junior SWA/Airtran CA flying a 717 with 115 seats.

-You will have the advantage of sitting 24 hour reserve in a crash pad in the slums of JFK.


DAL 767 CA max rate $182.00 @ 70 hour Reserve guarantee = $152,000 per year.

 

[redflyer65]

Wow, nice research. And painful looking numbers.

But if you read OYS and Gen much, you know that Delta is just about ready to open the checkbook and up those rates by 20%. I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you too.

RF

 

[Meiguy]

The Reality

-A DAL widebody Captain on reserve will make less than a SWA/Airtran First Officer.

-They make less than a current AirTran CA flying a 717.

-They will make far less than a Junior SWA/Airtran CA flying a 717 with 115 seats.

-You will have the advantage of sitting 24 hour reserve in a crash pad in the slums of JFK.


DAL 767 CA max rate $182.00 @ 70 hour Reserve guarantee = $152,000 per year.

You know a DAL widebody CA makes $205 now and will make $213 at the beginning of the year. Not saying thats great pay for a widebody but your facts are wrong. So if you can hold widebody CA reserve you should be able to hold Narrowbody 767 CA as a lineholder which will be at $189 come the new year. Pretty sure thats more that $163 at Airtran CA and Southwest FO pay!!

 

[redflyer65]

So you don't have any 767 CA reserves making 182/hr now? Most people consider a 767 a widebody. Maybe it's not listed that way in the DL contract, but his point is well taken...and still correct.

I'm glad it upped 6/hr soon though, still too low.

RF