So lets say an enroute looses sep, what do you 121 guys and gals do?

[Bjammin]

The other day going into ANC we had LOC and G/S capture and were on our way down the pipe inside the FAF. The tower controler vectored a Gulfstream going into Elmendorf accross our path at a lower altitude. The controller then altitude restricted us causing us to level out then said continue. Our descent angle would have been over 6deg and we would have exceded our requirements to be stabilized before 1500FT.

Obviously we took a Max ZFW freighter around at a cost of 1000's to the company after flying over the Pacific for the past 10 Hours.

Did we yell and scream at the controller in the confinment of the cockpit? Yes.

Did we file a report? We had to according to company guidelines.

Did we call any ATC facility what so ever? NO, and I don't think I ever would.

The only times I have called a controller are events that happened in the military in Kingville, TX. Alot of controller and pilot training goes on there. I think it is important to make new controllers aware of their faults, especially when they don't realize a potential hazard.

I respect controllers as much if not more then pilots. I studied ATC alot in college and understand the workings and limitations more then most pilots. Don't think there is any more then a very few pilots out to get you. I bet there are the same number of controllers out to get pilots.

 

[Say Again Over]

Having to fill out a captain's report or tech log for a missed approach doesn't have anything to do with getting an ATC specialist in trouble, calling the facility and reporting some incident to a Supervisor can't be good for the controller involved. Speaking for myself, controllers have saved my bacon on numerous occasions, I would NEVER file any paperwork to get a controller in trouble.:beer:

 

[av8rbama]

I'd never narc a controller... I've been known to be a smart-a$$ to the next controller before but all in fun after having a nice discussion with my photographer... I told BFM tower today I was on a "gazillion-mile" right base after a jerk at MOB approach acted like a baby and vectored me all over the place for me asking to get one flightline, tower just laughed it off. Controllers make my business (of mapping photos), if you're nice most of them will get you in where ever you need to go. I've been 5 south of MEM at 2000msl while landing 36 5 minutes before the mid-day push. Need to get a pop-up to get one shot at FL190, ask nicely and it's usually no sweat. I've had ATL center offer to coordinate with aircraft in an active MOA so we could get in before sun-angle was too low. Multiple sites in Eglin R-airspace, just call on the phone and say pretty please. I tell my boss to send them all nice box of cookies at Christmas... controllers are one of our greatest assets but could make our job a living heck.

 

[ONEWAY]

We're on the same team!!!

MK -

As a military flight school instructor, operating in Houston class B about 3 times a week, San Antonio, and the Valley the other 2 days....I experience firsthand the super relationship b/w us and the ATC-ers... I practically have Corpus Tracon, KZHU, and Houston Tracon in my speed dial, but 99% of my phone calls to the sup's are to APOLOGIZE for some idiotic mistake that I didn't catch my student doing!!! alt deviations, wrong direction, off course, etc (ultimately, those things are my mistake!!!)

While doing multiple approaches on every single training event, and puddle-jumping IFR between different airports, I know how intense the workload can be for the controller...Obviously everyone makes mistakes...but I see controllers doing a GREAT job everyday to work with us and complete our training. I've had a student turn the radio volume down (all the way) once while on vectors in Houston appr airspace...! Yeah, you can't bet how that phonecall went! Fortunately, I was on an eastbound vector on the eastern side of the city (Elllington field).. so the impact was minimal... And ultimately the controller said, "That's allright, there weren't many planes in your way anyway!!!!" He could've been a lot harder on me if he'd wanted!
Thanks for your service, and remember, take it easy on the military folks!

 

[JimG]

Seperation guidlines in a nutshell for the enroute guys...........5 miles and 1,000ft, used to be 2,000ft above 290 but not any longer with RVSM.

So, I should've said something last month when I was flying along at FL210 and had a Southwest 737 come directly over top of us decending down through our altitude on a clearance (I heard the clearance, but didn't know where/who it was for).

Or the time a DC-10 was cleared out onto the active....when I was 2-300 feet AGL on short final...necessitating an immediate go-around (good thing I was light).

Mistakes happen...I can accept that.

I just wished I'd been given the same consideration 20 years ago when as a young pilot was ferrying a friend's airplane (that I'd never flown) across PHX and clipped the ARSA (pre-Class B for you young guys) by 1/4 mile....in the days before Lorans and GPS's.

That cost me my license for 90 days....an AUTOMATIC penalty enforced on everyone who busted a reg.

If you think today's environment is hostile, you should have been around during the early years of the Reagan Administration with Elizabeth Dole as Transportation Secretary dealing with replacing PATCO strikers and reacting to public outrage after the Cerritos mid-air between a Cherokee and a Mexicana Airlines 727.

For several years, private pilots were adding flight recorders in droves to cover their asses from over-exuberant controllers who were ordered to "make examples" of "small airplane pilots" who were violating the rules (Lizzy Dole's exact terms).

It took years before the skies became civil and friendly again.

 

[Piper877]

ARSA

Hey someone else who remembers ARSA's and CZ's and such. Those were the days.

As far as the ATC vs. Pilots thing goes...in my very limited experience there have been times where ATC could have easily violated me or the captain I was flying with or instructor or whatever. The key thing is that we're all human beings (well ATC pukes are pseudo-humans) and we all make mistakes. I don't think anyone wins when we're all running around writing up incident reports for every little thing that happens.

 

[81Horse]

Hey someone else who remembers ARSA's and CZ's and such. Those were the days.

Remember them? Jeebuzz. I can't forget them.

 

[LXApilot]

Some people who shall remain nameless and are also spineless A$SHOLES who listen to the guy delving out the koolaid at an airline I know. He tells them that the airline self discloses everything to the FAA on loss of seperation/30in7 issues/not enough tp onboard, etc... and he tells them that they HAVE TO report it to a duty chief pilot and call respective ATC facility otherwise the airline will self-disclose on it's own to avoid a violation and you will be fired. No if's, and's, or but's... Can you believe that load of absolute BULL@#^@!!!

I for one have only called twice; both times Chicago Center. Both times they let us just fly right off the scope, no freq change (different centers airspace) and we were just tooling along in IMC. Controller never attempted to contact us. I know that can happen if the guy is busy, and hey I could honestly see myself doing that. So no harm/no foul. I just wanted to bring it to their attention. I guess Cleveland wasn't too angry about it, I never heard anything from them.

Seriously, don't let some jerkoff with a chip on his shoulder get you fired up. We appreciate what you do sir. Just remember, we're all on the same team out there.

 

[PastFastMover]

I have never written a report against a controller ever, and I have to admit I have seen some whoppers. Just the other day a friend busted an altitude by 300' with no other aircraft within 50 miles due to an aircraft malfunction. The controller violated them. I am now thinking that if you want to earn the pay you are currently getting that maybe it is time you are held accountable just like we have always been.

 

[81Horse]

I am now thinking that if you want to earn the pay you are currently getting that maybe it is time you are held accountable just like we have always been.

Harsh, man. Doing the math, I figure I still owe them a few free passes. (Eugene, SeaTac, Pasco -- you know what I mean!)

 

[Fugawe]

You might have been dealing with a knucklehead or 2, but there are knuckleheads in every profession.

Safety and common sense are the usual guiding tenents and much is subjective. If TCAS tells you to move the jet, generally you do unless you can absolutely determine visually there is no conflict. If this occurs, most guys just tell ATC and press on. If they get scared sh-tless, then calls might be made later.......hardly ever hear of this.

Crap happens often that isn't reported. Holding over Quito one night, we had an Ecuadorian airliner decide he wanted to hold at our altitude and entered right beside us -- so we climbed out of his way. Language and weather problems made it easier to just move....who do you complain to here? I've had friends maneuver out of the way on South American airways because a jet was coming up the airway opposite direction at the same altitude. I've had numerous encounters with aircraft manuevering visually in the islands (Caribbean) -- no biggee, just descended when they were clear, or turn final later because they turn in front of you.

Stateside and in Europe controllers are overall excellent. It also helps that most of them speak decent english, and other pilots are using english. Still problems can occur.

I don't think most pilots will report an incident unless separation is a safety issue. But, if I think a situation jeopardized me or my pax safety I will elevate it. I'd not 'rat out' anyone, that's a childish perspective. Moving jets, pax, and cargo around the sky is serious business -- if a pilot or controller screws up bad enough to warrant a safety concern, it needs to be addressed.

Controllers don't die in the jet in the incident, pilots and everyone else does -- expect the pilots to react a little different to an unnerving incident - and cut them some slack, 99% are not knuckleheads.

Fugawe

 

[lawfly]

ARSA (pre-Class B for you young guys)

The TCA or "upside down wedding cake" was the direct precursor of today's Class B and was around more than 20 years ago--probably 30 plus. TRSA and ARSA were the direct precursors of today's Class C. Yes, post-Cerritos did see a stiffer enforcement policy, particularly as to alleged airspace incursions. Not sure if there was a mandatory 90 day suspension policy, but will take your word for it. 1988-1989 or thereabouts saw the "kindler, gentler" FAA and penalties were less than the 90 days you cite, at least in those cases of which I have some personal knowledge. On the original topic of pilots and controllers, controllers make mistakes and one documented controller mistake which comes to mind contributed in very large measure to a (1989?) debacle at LAX (turboprop in position at an intersection and a jet lands on top...)
In general, and in my modest 91/135 experience, pilots and controllers work cooperatively together. Not to get too mushy here, but I have flown some "Lifeguard" flights recently, and the controllers I encountered during those flights did a commendable job of expediting us and of generally treating us nicely. Okay, enough mushy. File a NASA, don't call them on the phone, and call your lawyer!

 

[bandit317]

My turn!

I just got off the phone with the local FSDO office. Apparently, I had an altitude deviation back in Dec. and I am receiving an LOI. I remember the incident because I filed an ASRS report. It was a our fault, I'm not denying that. It was an altitude assignment that my FO and I heard differently. However, due to frequency congestion, could not get the verification prior to level off. When ATC queried regarding our altitude, we found out we were wrong. It was a CAVU day, and no other aircraft on TCAS. ATC didn't say anything other than "roger" when we told him our altitude. Now, a month later, I am getting an LOI from the FAA because of a controller. In my 16 years with the airlines, I have been assigned wrong altitudes during approaches, been called using the wrong callsign, given incorrect headings that resulted in near misses all by controllers who act like they are immune to human error. We pilots are the only ones in this industry that for some reason are held accountable for anything. Management has the "self disclose" and get out of jail free cards, and ATC doesn't even need to listen to readbacks anymore. I have long believed that as long as there is a human in the system, there is potential for error. I, however, have never once in 16 years asked to speak to a supervisor concerning a controller, or filed any report. I have talked with controllers on the phone regarding my actions and worked things out off the air in a professional manner - usually apologizing on my part . Yet, now I feel maybe the time has come to start holding ATC accountable for their screw-ups since they don't seem to give a rats ass about my career.

 

[ATCER]

I want to add something... at ARTCC's there is a computer that manages separation... nicknamed the "snitch". On a typical shift there are dozens of "hits", the majority being false (visual, A/C in approach airpace but being tracked by HOST in the ARTCC, etc). When an A/C loses separation an alert goes off at the watch desk. They then visually look at the sector and call the area the sector is in to speak with the sup to confirm/deny what is going on. When the determination is made that there was any loss of separation the giant federal wheels begin to move. At that point forward an investigation begins via the quality assurance office. Items investigated include was there really a loss of sep, was it the controllers fault or a pilot dev ? Too many things to get into here.

Not only is it hard to cover things up there is no reason to. Covering up an era is the most severe thing a controller can do... you do that and get caught you are FIRED... If a pilot does something and there is no loss of sep, we move on, once something happens such as a loss of separation we have no choice but to turn it in.

I want to add... it's been a while since I have seen a pilot rat on a controller, I'm talking one out of millions of ops. It rarely happens... one thing I have learned over the years is that pilots do not like talking to the feds. In the days of controllers jumpseating I often ran across flight crews that were very weary when they saw the FAA ID.

 

[cezzna]

4.5 miles is a load of crap. I don't know how he could possibly know. I too have had numerous occasions where ATC could have had my A$$. I would never rat a controller and I've had numerous RA's. They are a way of life in FLA and CA. You guys are overworked and understaffed to the point of insanity. It's criminal what they are doing to you with staffing. Every fair weather saturday when I'm in the system I can hear you guys pulling your hair out. When you have to deal with these incompetent flyers it must drive you absolutely nuts. If you need to vent on someone go after these guys who need a wake up violation. Everything is tense in aviation now, and lots of pilots are probably taking out their frustrations on you. Not too many happy pilots these days. If you get a call from me it will be for the good work you are doing, when does your shift end, and I'll meet you at the bar.