So lets say an enroute looses sep, what do you 121 guys and gals do?

[Lrjtcaptain]

So, im a swivel headed tower puke but heard from a friend that a certain ARTCC ran a deal, a loss of seperation in which 2 planes came within 4 1/2 miles of eachother at FL200. They eventually got eachother in sight and in all reality, give me a break, the TRACONS move you closer so there was no danger especially with RVSM now days. Anyways, the A.H. pilot had to call the ARTCC and NARC on the controller whos sup's were already notified of the incident. We are talking center controllers who are currently working in facilitys way understaffed, working manditory 6 days. Now this controller was working probably the busiest chunk of enroute airspace in the country. Are you required to call when your in 121 if you see something like this happen? Where is the brotherly love here? Here is how i look at it, pilots make mistakes all the time, controllers do to, we seldomly write anyone up, and seldomly make them dial the dreaded phone number. Here is how I look at it........If we as controllers, have you call and question what happend, we leave it at that, its not like we call your chief pilot and narc you out, so I look forward to your feed back. If there is bad blood between pilots and controllers and out of spite your trying to get controllers in trouble, not all of you just some of you then we can all agree the my supervisor is going to get really good at filling out Pilot deviation forms if you all want to take this to the next level. This pisses me off...and im not talking about all of you, just the many few whom ive heard have done this in the past. We know what we did, you know what we did, and if you want to call and talk about it fine, as for the controller, not the area sups etc....In this situation the sup basically told this pilot to F.Off, he was already notified of the problem and had dealt with it. If there are a certain number of you out to burn us, I think we will win this one! Fly safe and don't F...up!

 

[SCT]

Lrjtcaptain,

As a good review, will you list the seperation guidelines ATC uses in the flight levels and terminal areas for IFR traffic.

Thanks,
SCT

 

[Swass]

A little edgy are we today? Wow.

:angryfire

 

[Corbon]

I don't know of any pilot who would rat out someone like that. Never known anyone who's done it. Especially with TCAS, it seems like there would be no safety issue in this instance. This guy is probably a well known prick who everybody hates, so in turn he has to bust everybody who makes a mistake. At the same time he wonders why no one likes flying with him.
I've had controllers make mistakes with me and I've made mistakes, it happens to everyone. Maybe this pilot (captain I'd guess?) is just incompetent and at some point in his past he's screwed the pooch bigtime and got busted by a controller who had no other choice and is now has a personal vendetta. Whatever it is, I assure you it is very isolated and most of us have nothing but respect for ATC so tell the sups to just keep those deviation forms in the drawer unless one of us really deserves it.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Well, i agree, are you required to report it as a 121 pilot? I don't know your rules at all, 135 and 91 I know.....but comon...Im required to fill out a PD everytime I see a pilot bust a rule...I look at it like this, Im not a cop, I seperate airplanes. I don't fill out any pd's....Now in turn I expect you to do your job, follow the rules and let me do my job. But ive heard time and time again of this, pilot calls and can't talk to the controller.....no no, he has to talk to the supervisor...Okay fine, you start doing that, I start calling chief pilots instead of you calling me. Seperation guidlines in a nutshell for the enroute guys...........5 miles and 1,000ft, used to be 2,000ft above 290 but not any longer with RVSM. Now a tracon, they have short range radar, sweeps are fast...Enroutes longrange delays are 8 to 12 secs as for the 5 miles as opposed to 3 for tracons. Thats my point, with RVSM, clear WX and 4.5 miles here, there was no danger....but this pilot, eager to be a prick called the supervisor. Thats my point, Ive heard of this happening more and more. So if this is the way its going I have no problem being a D... right back. I don't want to be, but it looks as though there has been alot of animosity. You do your job, ill do mine, and the worst thing that can happen is a phone call to me.......However, if this starts happening more and more, bad blood arises, and things get ugly. I hold grudges for 48hours. Pilots are on my list for another 47. Fly safe

 

[EagleRJ]

Are you sure the pilot asked to speak with a supervisor? If a pilot calls a facility to complain about something. He's probably not going to be able to ask for "whoever was working ABC3 arrivals over DEF at 1530Z". The sup is usually the one who answers the phone.

I've only called to talk to someone once. There was no loss of seperation- just some extraordinarily bad judgement by the Local controller. I had to talk to the sup, since Local was busy. I'm still not going to go out of my way to make trouble for a particular controller, since I suspect he can easily make more trouble for me. I'll bet most pilots are the same.

Most 121 carriers are participants in the ASAP program, which expands on the NASA form to catalog and correct operational issues before they become systemic problems. In the event of a PD, filing an ASAP report is a smart idea, but it does you no good if you're just angry about something that happened with ATC. Normally in the case of a serious "deal" on the controller's behalf, enough other people will see it that it will be hard to brush off.

 

[millhouse21]

Not required to rat on ATC as a part 121 pilot.

 

[avbug]

From a pilot's perspective, how would I know, and why would I care that you didn't meet your book-value separation? I wouldn't. How the other crew found out, I have no idea...but in RVSM I see aircraft come by with 1,000 separation and a whole lot less than five miles all the time. I don't care. I see aircraft at my altitude and I have no idea if they're 4.5 or 5 miles, nor do I care.

Any pilot that would make an issue of 4.5 miles instead of 5 needs to be stripped naked, varnished, and set out to sea. He doesn't belong in an aircraft cockpit. What a dingbat.

When I do call a control facility, if a particular controller isn't available, I'll ask to talk to a supervisor. I'm not going to wait on the line all day. I seldom call a control facility, and when I do, it's not to complain about a controller. I can think of only once recently when that became necessary, and I didn't have the time to actually make the call. It was really tempting, however, because the controller was pushing it. I very nearly got on Ground after clearing, and told them to standby to copy my cell number...

It would have been worth it just for their reaction, but I really was ticked.

 

[FracCapt]

I've called an ARTCC twice to speak with the controller about certain issues(neither of which were his fault), but was not allowed to speak to the controller. I was only allowed to speak with the supervisor.

One such incident caused a loss of separation while we were IFR, headed into JFK. We were at 15,000, IMC, and had VFR traffic called out at 15,500 descending on a converging course, 7 miles away. We were solid IMC, and reported such. Our TCAS was MEL'd, so we didn't know where the guy was. I immediately requested a turn, he gave us one, but the offending aircraft matched the turn(presumably watching us on TCAS, trying to avoid us, not realizing we were turning). ATC said the VFR traffic was at 15,200 and descending, so I began an immediate and rapid climb when he was about 3 miles away. At about 15,100, we broke out on top and saw a turboprop skimming the tops and just popping into the clouds during descent. We were less than 1500ft horizontally, at nearly the same altitude, and he was passing right to left.

When I called to speak with the controller, the supervisor would not allow me to. I wanted to thank him for his quick actions, because otherwise it would likely have resulted in a midair while IMC. I also wanted to tell them what aircraft it was(because there were only 2 prototypes in existence at that time), because I was pissed that some idiot was out flying IMC while squawking VFR just west of NYC airspace. The supervisor even asked me if I wanted to file a complaint against the controller for loss of separation. :angryfire Of course, I didn't...it wasn't his fault that this idiot was out tooling around where he shouldn't be.

 

[Green Banana]

Don't get wraped around the axl on this one. 98% of the guys out there would land and go stright to the hotel and not think about it again. There are a few dildo's out there, don't let them ruin your day. As for 121, I am required to fill out a one page fill in the blanks form if I get a "RA". That is a "PULL UP" "CLIMB" or anything like that where the aircraft is trying to keep me from diying. If I get a "TRAFFIC" TA, no sweat. I get that about 4-5 times a flight.

Thanks for keepin us outa each others way!!!!!!

 

[Flying Illini]

lrjtcaptain, we all appreciate what you do but you need to relax. Your problem is with a miniscule group of pilots, don't start a fight by taking out your frustrations on all pilots.

However, if this starts happening more and more, bad blood arises, and things get ugly. I hold grudges for 48hours. Pilots are on my list for another 47. Fly safe

Are you seriously making a threat? That's pretty juvenile.

 

[enigma]

Lrjetcaptain, we are required to report RA's etc, but I can assure you that 99% of us would never bother calling the controlling facility unless we are afraid that we are looking at some kind of enforcement action. Even in that case, most would not call. H-e-doublehockeysticks, we don't want to call attention to anything that might get buried/forgotten otherwise.

I am going to make a note of this string though, if I get called before the POI, I'll point to this for proof that controllers are not exactly above getting even.

enigma

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

When this pilot called in he requested the supervisor to complain. Very few of you know me, and don/t know i go out of my way to accomidate anyrequest. I don't care if you do 300ktss in my airspace as long as you don't endanger the saftey of another aircraft. I would never cross to the dark side and burn a pilot out of spite. Everything can be handled proffessionaly. At least here there is discretion and i can understand your requi9rements and you can understand mine. We all play safe and we all bend the rules to get the job done provided no one is endangerd. I run on the philosophy that i do my job you do yours, everything looks good then its all good.....don't take what i wrote above to seriously about us turning in to aholes and writing everyone up. I wouldn't do that. Im just offended that some of the pilots out there are out to get us. As a pilot, and an ex corporate pilot i know the tedious crap involved. As a controller I know what the entire FAA is understaffed and we are being worked to death to get everyone on there way and to accomidate every ILS approach in VFR conditions for a C150 who can't do it in VFR conditions. Its tedious work. I guess what I am asking is this. IF you ever need to call a facility and need to report something think of what is at stake. If your on the ground let it go, we let so much crap go as controllers its amazing. But we as controllers aren't out there hunting down the chief pilot to put your job on the line. Keep in mine Blakey and her crew in washington are finding anyway possible to fire as many of us as she can, if we loose sepeartion in someway the sups know, its called a snitch. Radars have the snitch, and us tower pukes get the AMAS alarm. Its usually handled in a discreat manner, but yo draw attention, it doesn't do any good. Like i said earlier, you can bust any FAR in my presence so long as you don't jeopordize the safety of another one of my planes......if the snitch goes offand you dont feel unsafe......Just say "ohyeah, weve had that guy in sight." We know we F.d up, you know we f'd up......no harm no foul. Fly safe, be nice....the grudge has lifted.

MK

 

[joe_pilot]

Lrjtcaptain,

I have been on the receiving end of kindness by controllers numerous times. Every time, I fessed up and at worst was scolded and told to watch it next time. I think the determining factor most controllers use is what the attitude of the offender was. Were they humble?, apologetic?, etc. The only way any pilot I know would narc would be if the controller screwed up and then tried to weasle out of it AND was a jerk.

Not trying to justify the guy at all, just trying to imagine why it might have been done.

While I'm at it, thx for all the breaks!

-JP

 

[aussiefly]

I agree wholeheartedly with the messages in theis thread but I also have to say that ultimately Controllers are there to provide a service. No matter how bad some of the tool kit pilots are (like the guy that rang was) it shouldn't descend into a pissing match. In the long run there are alot more pilots than controllers and they do tend to lobby the FAA pretty well. And since the FAA are looking for reason to fire y'all I wouldnt give them any more ammo.

For everyones benefit just let stuff like this slide. There are plenty of idiot pilots out there just like there are some crappy controllers(very few in my limited experience).

 

[Bjammin]

The other day going into ANC we had LOC and G/S capture and were on our way down the pipe inside the FAF. The tower controler vectored a Gulfstream going into Elmendorf accross our path at a lower altitude. The controller then altitude restricted us causing us to level out then said continue. Our descent angle would have been over 6deg and we would have exceded our requirements to be stabilized before 1500FT.

Obviously we took a Max ZFW freighter around at a cost of 1000's to the company after flying over the Pacific for the past 10 Hours.

Did we yell and scream at the controller in the confinment of the cockpit? Yes.

Did we file a report? We had to according to company guidelines.

Did we call any ATC facility what so ever? NO, and I don't think I ever would.

The only times I have called a controller are events that happened in the military in Kingville, TX. Alot of controller and pilot training goes on there. I think it is important to make new controllers aware of their faults, especially when they don't realize a potential hazard.

I respect controllers as much if not more then pilots. I studied ATC alot in college and understand the workings and limitations more then most pilots. Don't think there is any more then a very few pilots out to get you. I bet there are the same number of controllers out to get pilots.

 

[Say Again Over]

Having to fill out a captain's report or tech log for a missed approach doesn't have anything to do with getting an ATC specialist in trouble, calling the facility and reporting some incident to a Supervisor can't be good for the controller involved. Speaking for myself, controllers have saved my bacon on numerous occasions, I would NEVER file any paperwork to get a controller in trouble.:beer:

 

[av8rbama]

I'd never narc a controller... I've been known to be a smart-a$$ to the next controller before but all in fun after having a nice discussion with my photographer... I told BFM tower today I was on a "gazillion-mile" right base after a jerk at MOB approach acted like a baby and vectored me all over the place for me asking to get one flightline, tower just laughed it off. Controllers make my business (of mapping photos), if you're nice most of them will get you in where ever you need to go. I've been 5 south of MEM at 2000msl while landing 36 5 minutes before the mid-day push. Need to get a pop-up to get one shot at FL190, ask nicely and it's usually no sweat. I've had ATL center offer to coordinate with aircraft in an active MOA so we could get in before sun-angle was too low. Multiple sites in Eglin R-airspace, just call on the phone and say pretty please. I tell my boss to send them all nice box of cookies at Christmas... controllers are one of our greatest assets but could make our job a living heck.

 

[ONEWAY]

We're on the same team!!!

MK -

As a military flight school instructor, operating in Houston class B about 3 times a week, San Antonio, and the Valley the other 2 days....I experience firsthand the super relationship b/w us and the ATC-ers... I practically have Corpus Tracon, KZHU, and Houston Tracon in my speed dial, but 99% of my phone calls to the sup's are to APOLOGIZE for some idiotic mistake that I didn't catch my student doing!!! alt deviations, wrong direction, off course, etc (ultimately, those things are my mistake!!!)

While doing multiple approaches on every single training event, and puddle-jumping IFR between different airports, I know how intense the workload can be for the controller...Obviously everyone makes mistakes...but I see controllers doing a GREAT job everyday to work with us and complete our training. I've had a student turn the radio volume down (all the way) once while on vectors in Houston appr airspace...! Yeah, you can't bet how that phonecall went! Fortunately, I was on an eastbound vector on the eastern side of the city (Elllington field).. so the impact was minimal... And ultimately the controller said, "That's allright, there weren't many planes in your way anyway!!!!" He could've been a lot harder on me if he'd wanted!
Thanks for your service, and remember, take it easy on the military folks!

 

[JimG]

Seperation guidlines in a nutshell for the enroute guys...........5 miles and 1,000ft, used to be 2,000ft above 290 but not any longer with RVSM.

So, I should've said something last month when I was flying along at FL210 and had a Southwest 737 come directly over top of us decending down through our altitude on a clearance (I heard the clearance, but didn't know where/who it was for).

Or the time a DC-10 was cleared out onto the active....when I was 2-300 feet AGL on short final...necessitating an immediate go-around (good thing I was light).

Mistakes happen...I can accept that.

I just wished I'd been given the same consideration 20 years ago when as a young pilot was ferrying a friend's airplane (that I'd never flown) across PHX and clipped the ARSA (pre-Class B for you young guys) by 1/4 mile....in the days before Lorans and GPS's.

That cost me my license for 90 days....an AUTOMATIC penalty enforced on everyone who busted a reg.

If you think today's environment is hostile, you should have been around during the early years of the Reagan Administration with Elizabeth Dole as Transportation Secretary dealing with replacing PATCO strikers and reacting to public outrage after the Cerritos mid-air between a Cherokee and a Mexicana Airlines 727.

For several years, private pilots were adding flight recorders in droves to cover their asses from over-exuberant controllers who were ordered to "make examples" of "small airplane pilots" who were violating the rules (Lizzy Dole's exact terms).

It took years before the skies became civil and friendly again.