So lets say an enroute looses sep, what do you 121 guys and gals do?

[Piper877]

ARSA

Hey someone else who remembers ARSA's and CZ's and such. Those were the days.

As far as the ATC vs. Pilots thing goes...in my very limited experience there have been times where ATC could have easily violated me or the captain I was flying with or instructor or whatever. The key thing is that we're all human beings (well ATC pukes are pseudo-humans) and we all make mistakes. I don't think anyone wins when we're all running around writing up incident reports for every little thing that happens.

 

[81Horse]

Hey someone else who remembers ARSA's and CZ's and such. Those were the days.

Remember them? Jeebuzz. I can't forget them.

 

[LXApilot]

Some people who shall remain nameless and are also spineless A$SHOLES who listen to the guy delving out the koolaid at an airline I know. He tells them that the airline self discloses everything to the FAA on loss of seperation/30in7 issues/not enough tp onboard, etc... and he tells them that they HAVE TO report it to a duty chief pilot and call respective ATC facility otherwise the airline will self-disclose on it's own to avoid a violation and you will be fired. No if's, and's, or but's... Can you believe that load of absolute BULL@#^@!!!

I for one have only called twice; both times Chicago Center. Both times they let us just fly right off the scope, no freq change (different centers airspace) and we were just tooling along in IMC. Controller never attempted to contact us. I know that can happen if the guy is busy, and hey I could honestly see myself doing that. So no harm/no foul. I just wanted to bring it to their attention. I guess Cleveland wasn't too angry about it, I never heard anything from them.

Seriously, don't let some jerkoff with a chip on his shoulder get you fired up. We appreciate what you do sir. Just remember, we're all on the same team out there.

 

[PastFastMover]

I have never written a report against a controller ever, and I have to admit I have seen some whoppers. Just the other day a friend busted an altitude by 300' with no other aircraft within 50 miles due to an aircraft malfunction. The controller violated them. I am now thinking that if you want to earn the pay you are currently getting that maybe it is time you are held accountable just like we have always been.

 

[81Horse]

I am now thinking that if you want to earn the pay you are currently getting that maybe it is time you are held accountable just like we have always been.

Harsh, man. Doing the math, I figure I still owe them a few free passes. (Eugene, SeaTac, Pasco -- you know what I mean!)

 

[Fugawe]

You might have been dealing with a knucklehead or 2, but there are knuckleheads in every profession.

Safety and common sense are the usual guiding tenents and much is subjective. If TCAS tells you to move the jet, generally you do unless you can absolutely determine visually there is no conflict. If this occurs, most guys just tell ATC and press on. If they get scared sh-tless, then calls might be made later.......hardly ever hear of this.

Crap happens often that isn't reported. Holding over Quito one night, we had an Ecuadorian airliner decide he wanted to hold at our altitude and entered right beside us -- so we climbed out of his way. Language and weather problems made it easier to just move....who do you complain to here? I've had friends maneuver out of the way on South American airways because a jet was coming up the airway opposite direction at the same altitude. I've had numerous encounters with aircraft manuevering visually in the islands (Caribbean) -- no biggee, just descended when they were clear, or turn final later because they turn in front of you.

Stateside and in Europe controllers are overall excellent. It also helps that most of them speak decent english, and other pilots are using english. Still problems can occur.

I don't think most pilots will report an incident unless separation is a safety issue. But, if I think a situation jeopardized me or my pax safety I will elevate it. I'd not 'rat out' anyone, that's a childish perspective. Moving jets, pax, and cargo around the sky is serious business -- if a pilot or controller screws up bad enough to warrant a safety concern, it needs to be addressed.

Controllers don't die in the jet in the incident, pilots and everyone else does -- expect the pilots to react a little different to an unnerving incident - and cut them some slack, 99% are not knuckleheads.

Fugawe

 

[lawfly]

ARSA (pre-Class B for you young guys)

The TCA or "upside down wedding cake" was the direct precursor of today's Class B and was around more than 20 years ago--probably 30 plus. TRSA and ARSA were the direct precursors of today's Class C. Yes, post-Cerritos did see a stiffer enforcement policy, particularly as to alleged airspace incursions. Not sure if there was a mandatory 90 day suspension policy, but will take your word for it. 1988-1989 or thereabouts saw the "kindler, gentler" FAA and penalties were less than the 90 days you cite, at least in those cases of which I have some personal knowledge. On the original topic of pilots and controllers, controllers make mistakes and one documented controller mistake which comes to mind contributed in very large measure to a (1989?) debacle at LAX (turboprop in position at an intersection and a jet lands on top...)
In general, and in my modest 91/135 experience, pilots and controllers work cooperatively together. Not to get too mushy here, but I have flown some "Lifeguard" flights recently, and the controllers I encountered during those flights did a commendable job of expediting us and of generally treating us nicely. Okay, enough mushy. File a NASA, don't call them on the phone, and call your lawyer!

 

[bandit317]

My turn!

I just got off the phone with the local FSDO office. Apparently, I had an altitude deviation back in Dec. and I am receiving an LOI. I remember the incident because I filed an ASRS report. It was a our fault, I'm not denying that. It was an altitude assignment that my FO and I heard differently. However, due to frequency congestion, could not get the verification prior to level off. When ATC queried regarding our altitude, we found out we were wrong. It was a CAVU day, and no other aircraft on TCAS. ATC didn't say anything other than "roger" when we told him our altitude. Now, a month later, I am getting an LOI from the FAA because of a controller. In my 16 years with the airlines, I have been assigned wrong altitudes during approaches, been called using the wrong callsign, given incorrect headings that resulted in near misses all by controllers who act like they are immune to human error. We pilots are the only ones in this industry that for some reason are held accountable for anything. Management has the "self disclose" and get out of jail free cards, and ATC doesn't even need to listen to readbacks anymore. I have long believed that as long as there is a human in the system, there is potential for error. I, however, have never once in 16 years asked to speak to a supervisor concerning a controller, or filed any report. I have talked with controllers on the phone regarding my actions and worked things out off the air in a professional manner - usually apologizing on my part . Yet, now I feel maybe the time has come to start holding ATC accountable for their screw-ups since they don't seem to give a rats ass about my career.

 

[ATCER]

I want to add something... at ARTCC's there is a computer that manages separation... nicknamed the "snitch". On a typical shift there are dozens of "hits", the majority being false (visual, A/C in approach airpace but being tracked by HOST in the ARTCC, etc). When an A/C loses separation an alert goes off at the watch desk. They then visually look at the sector and call the area the sector is in to speak with the sup to confirm/deny what is going on. When the determination is made that there was any loss of separation the giant federal wheels begin to move. At that point forward an investigation begins via the quality assurance office. Items investigated include was there really a loss of sep, was it the controllers fault or a pilot dev ? Too many things to get into here.

Not only is it hard to cover things up there is no reason to. Covering up an era is the most severe thing a controller can do... you do that and get caught you are FIRED... If a pilot does something and there is no loss of sep, we move on, once something happens such as a loss of separation we have no choice but to turn it in.

I want to add... it's been a while since I have seen a pilot rat on a controller, I'm talking one out of millions of ops. It rarely happens... one thing I have learned over the years is that pilots do not like talking to the feds. In the days of controllers jumpseating I often ran across flight crews that were very weary when they saw the FAA ID.

 

[cezzna]

4.5 miles is a load of crap. I don't know how he could possibly know. I too have had numerous occasions where ATC could have had my A$$. I would never rat a controller and I've had numerous RA's. They are a way of life in FLA and CA. You guys are overworked and understaffed to the point of insanity. It's criminal what they are doing to you with staffing. Every fair weather saturday when I'm in the system I can hear you guys pulling your hair out. When you have to deal with these incompetent flyers it must drive you absolutely nuts. If you need to vent on someone go after these guys who need a wake up violation. Everything is tense in aviation now, and lots of pilots are probably taking out their frustrations on you. Not too many happy pilots these days. If you get a call from me it will be for the good work you are doing, when does your shift end, and I'll meet you at the bar.

 

[Say Again Over]

Bandit, doesn't sound like you have much to worry about if you filed the NASA report, no loss of separation, no reprimand, our relationship with controllers is a special one, let's not screw it up, DEMAND a read back if there is any question. Good luck.

 

[TurboS7]

Registered User



Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,185
Civ/Mil: Civilian Part 121 PC12/04
A/C Flown: B738,B727,HS125,LRJT, and numerous bugsmashers from DC-3 on down
Ratings: ATPSES,CFIAIMI,A+P,AI, B737,B727,HS125,LRJT
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Posts: 2,185


I hear ya
I read the first post and I heard the frustrations of a contoller. No pilot(at least all of us from the old school, from the new school there are some I am not impressed with)is going to write any controller up. The only reason he would do this is because he maybe felt that the controller was going to do it himself. Most of the time we use the tone of voice to determine what we are going to do in the event of a problem. The risky part is that we don't know what happens after the controller releases the mike switch. With the advent of the ASAP program if there is a mistake the pilot is going to write it up to cover himselt. If he writes it up it will go to the ASAP committee which consist of the union, the POI(FAA), and the committee heads from management. Usually it will stop right there and go no further, by the time it gets to the committee the whole incident is sterilzed so no one knows the time, date and situation.If one does not write up an ASAP report and it hits the fan via another venue, the pilot is in big trouble and could face violations, with an ASAP report the pilot is exempt for the most part.Therefore with the advent of the ASAP program any type of incident I will write up, this covers myself and my crew and in reality covers the controller too as incident now goes from regulatory violation to advisory so no one involved will get hurt one way or the other.

 

[bandit317]

Bandit, doesn't sound like you have much to worry about if you filed the NASA report, no loss of separation, no reprimand, our relationship with controllers is a special one, let's not screw it up, DEMAND a read back if there is any question. Good luck.

Apparently I am going to get a letter or warning since those are not covered under the ASR exemption program.

 

[Say Again Over]

Wow, that's what I call dodging a bullet, you must have been very cooperative.