SkyWest Staffing Problem

[PBRstreetgang]

You really are nonstop aren't you? I think you could add a few more names in there.... please give it another shot- show all of us your brilliance... again.

Jon,
I don't think I need to add anything!
Do the math?
PBR

 

[BigLebowski]

Unless you quit being a pu$$y and just refuse to do it. You can do that you know, I've done it at ASA. And ALPA just got ASA an industry leading contract to vote on.

Trojan

Well that would be an ingenious thing to do wouldn't it? They used to fire people for refusing an assignment...Then you would have to sit and wait while ALPA handled it with no paycheck.
Sorry, not the case there.

If ALPA is so good, why is USAir trying to vote them off? Soon will be United, NWA, and of course TWA.....oops I forgot ALPA took great care of them.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Well that would be an ingenious thing to do wouldn't it? They used to fire people for refusing an assignment...Then you would have to sit and wait while ALPA handled it with no paycheck.
Sorry, not the case there.

If ALPA is so good, why is USAir trying to vote them off? Soon will be United, NWA, and of course TWA.....oops I forgot ALPA took great care of them.

Well,
The USAir guys are crying into their beer, they wanted to step to the front of the line ahead of the AW guys. These were the same guys who were publicly stating that when USAir and United merged they were going to get DOH and deserved it. The very same United guys who want the decertification are the same guys, one who told me personally he hadn't been to a local meeting in years, he just wanted to save the dues. I am constantly amazed, the guys who use messa as an ALPA example refuse to admit or even consider how bad it would be there without a contract. For all the UAL guys who want to decertify ALPA, look at the concessions that SKYW pilots have endured in the last 5 years and apply those losses to their situation.
PBR

 

[fatdumbandhappy]

ooops

 

[Soverytired]

If it's in the Contract, it's in the Contract. Fire me, I hope they do, I will get very very rich. You start making up rules, now that's a different story....

Trojan

Well, it would certainly be nice if it worked that way in the real world. But bluster aside, I think you know it doesn't.

Unfortunately, if you refuse an assignment just because you disagree with your company's contract interpretation (or even their blatant disregard of a contract clause), and thereby don't follow the proscribed and contractually bargained for grievance process, you might be fired . . . . for good, and your union won't be able to do squat.

And that's going to follow you for the rest of your aviation career. Assuming you still have one.

Most of the "job saving" that unions do has to do with "wrongful termination." . . .usually in the form of not following the contractually agreed to disciplinary steps to the letter. This is how the true embarrassments to aviation get their jobs back. A short list of what I've seen and heard of:

• Pilots who sexually harass flight attendants (I know of one from Independence who actually got his job back after drugging then sexually assaulting one***)
• Showing up with alcohol on their breath
• Gross mishandling of the aircraft (like a full blown stall in smooth air at altitude)

All deserved to be fired. All WERE fired. Immediately. And they all got their jobs back, with backpay and bonuses, because the company didn't follow the contractually agreed to disciplinary framework. Had they done so, they would have been gone for good, forever.

So . . . be careful.


----------------------------

***(On a side note, this particular scumbag was caught doing it AGAIN, was fired properly with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, and wound up in jail when she pressed charges)

 

[Soverytired]

Well,
I am constantly amazed, the guys who use messa as an ALPA example refuse to admit or even consider how bad it would be there without a contract.
PBR

I think it's a valid criticism to say that "because ALPA doesn't work at Mesa, it won't work anywhere".

The biggest, and broadest example of ALPA failing on a national scale is their inability to protect the very hard earned pensions of all those poor bastards from the legacy carriers (DAL, UAL, etc., etc.) Thousands of these men and women worked the longest, invested tens of millions of dollars into ALPA over their long careers, and when push came to shove, they didn't have a voice and were thrown under the bus when concessions were needed.

If the first thing these pilots demand when their contracts come up is to restore the pensions above all other things, I'll eat my words and reconsider ALPA. Anyone care to wager on how likely that will be?

Unions may be the answer for some airlines (poster children = WN, UPS). I'm convinced, however, that ALPA is not the answer as it is presently constituted, especially for the regionals.

 

[PCL_128]

Unfortunately, if you refuse an assignment just because you disagree with your company's contract interpretation (or even their blatant disregard of a contract clause), and thereby don't follow the proscribed and contractually bargained for grievance process, you might be fired . . . . for good, and your union won't be able to do squat.

Incorrect. It's certainly true that the company can fire you if you refuse the assignment (the company can fire you whenever they want, but it doesn't mean that it will stick). However, when it goes to the arbitrator, he will be looking to see if the assignment was a legal assignment per the agreement. If the arbitrator finds that the assignment was not in compliance with the agreement, then he will rule that the termination was without just cause and order the company to reinstate your employment with full back pay.

The problem with this scenario is this: if you have some really bad luck and end up with a nutty arbitrator, then he could come up with a wacky interpretation of what is seemingly easy to understand contract language. I've seen arbitrators make some very strange rulings. In a majority of cases, however, the arbitrator will make a reasonable interpretation of the contract language.

As an ALPA rep, I always told pilots to "fly it and grieve it" as official advice. However, in situations that I was personally dealing with scheduling about, I would tell them to stick it if they were trying to get me to fly an illegal assignment. I would never tell a member to refuse an assignment, because there was the small chance that the company would wrongfully terminate them, but the decision is really up to you. If you're very confident in your interpretation of the agreement, then you're really not taking a whole lot of risk.

 

[PCL_128]

I think it's a valid criticism to say that "because ALPA doesn't work at Mesa, it won't work anywhere".

ALPA does work at Mesa. Had it not been for ALPA, your job would have been outsourced to Freedumb a long time ago. ALPA had to spend negotiating capital to protect your job with scope, and the other sections of the agreement had to suffer to "buy" that scope language.

The biggest, and broadest example of ALPA failing on a national scale is their inability to protect the very hard earned pensions of all those poor bastards from the legacy carriers (DAL, UAL, etc., etc.)

The blame for this rests with the current bankruptcy laws. The 1113(c) bankruptcy process is heavily weighted in favor of management, and there are no protections for employee pension plans. There simply wasn't enough negotiating leverage to keep the pensions during concessionary bargaining. ALPA is currently working with Congress to change the bankruptcy laws to prevent the remaining pension plans from being terminated. Captain Prater recently gave testimony to Congress on this issue.

If the first thing these pilots demand when their contracts come up is to restore the pensions above all other things, I'll eat my words and reconsider ALPA. Anyone care to wager on how likely that will be?

Doing so would be a waste of negotiating capital. The pensions would simply be at risk again the next time an airline files for Chapter 11. Unless the bankruptcy laws are drastically changed, pension plans are huge cost-savings targets in bankruptcy. Wasting leverage to negotiate for something that you'll just lose again in the next bankruptcy is not solid strategy. The goal should be to fix the bankruptcy process, and work on top of the line B-funds in the mean time. For most pilots, a B-fund is a far superior retirement vehicle anyway.

 

[Gandalf]

The alpa guarantee through the eyes of Tommy boy.... ive got a box and some spare time for you alpa lovers

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.
Ted: I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.
Ted: What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
Ted: But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?
Tommy: Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of ********************. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.

(just vote no by not calling in)

And you think that the "guarantee" of a SAPA negotiated "agreement" with management is worth anything? WTF? Ummm, last time I checked, SAPA has done nothing for us!

Oh, yeah GO SAPA, GO SAPA! SAPA has so much REAL BARGINING POWER! They can go to JA, BH, and boys and tell them what to do. And, golly gee wizz they will just listen and do whatever SAPA says. Are u freaking kidding me!!!!

TALK ABOUT WRAPPING THINGS UP IN A BOX! Oh, We have Sked+ - yippee do da! Hmmm, they were kind of quick to get Sked+ up and running weren't they? Makes you kind of start to wonder why so they were so quick to put up the cute little posters and flyers up in crew lounges!

On the other hand, I did get a new lunchbox and a flight attendent binder for my already bound FOM. At a cost to the company that I would have rather seen in form of a decent pay proposal that would have made a difference in my life.

So, keeping on drinking the kool-aid.

Again to beat a dead horse.............

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE IS SAPA. MANAGEMENT HAS NO, I REPEAT NO, LEGAL OBLIGATION TO DO ANYTHING SAPA SAYS.

SAPA CAN "NEGOTIATE" AND "BARGIN" ALL THEY WANT. IT DOESN'T MATTER. IT IS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY!

SAPA HAS NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING TO NEGOTIATE WITH.

HOW CAN U NEGOTIATE WITH MANAGEMENT WHEN YOU ARE FUNDED BY MANAGEMENT, WHEN THERE IS NO LEGAL, BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES, WHEN MANAGEMENT CAN CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME AS WELL AS THE PLAYING FIELD AND YOU HAVE NO LEGAL RECOURSE!

THAT IS NOT NEGOTIATING OR BEING REPRESENTED!

AS YOU QUOTED EARLIER...."feel all warm and toasty inside." ISN'T THAT WHAT SAPA DOES BEST?

SAPA IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF "THE BOX OF CRA%"

 

[jea]

Yeah, what I find very funny now is that Skywest Mgmt. is resorting to "threatening" company emails to all of its pilots. Nice job, and some of you complain about "ALPA thugs?" What kind of threats did ASA hear before this thing was TA'd?

Trojan

threatening emails? I just checked- i must be off the threatening email list

 

[jea]

And you think that the "guarantee" of a SAPA negotiated "agreement" with management is worth anything? WTF? Ummm, last time I checked, SAPA has done nothing for us!

Oh, yeah GO SAPA, GO SAPA! SAPA has so much REAL BARGINING POWER! They can go to JA, BH, and boys and tell them what to do. And, golly gee wizz they will just listen and do whatever SAPA says. Are u freaking kidding me!!!!

TALK ABOUT WRAPPING THINGS UP IN A BOX! Oh, We have Sked+ - yippee do da! Hmmm, they were kind of quick to get Sked+ up and running weren't they? Makes you kind of start to wonder why so they were so quick to put up the cute little posters and flyers up in crew lounges!

On the other hand, I did get a new lunchbox and a flight attendent binder for my already bound FOM. At a cost to the company that I would have rather seen in form of a decent pay proposal that would have made a difference in my life.

So, keeping on drinking the kool-aid.

Again to beat a dead horse.............

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE IS SAPA. MANAGEMENT HAS NO, I REPEAT NO, LEGAL OBLIGATION TO DO ANYTHING SAPA SAYS.

SAPA CAN "NEGOTIATE" AND "BARGIN" ALL THEY WANT. IT DOESN'T MATTER. IT IS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY!

SAPA HAS NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING TO NEGOTIATE WITH.

HOW CAN U NEGOTIATE WITH MANAGEMENT WHEN YOU ARE FUNDED BY MANAGEMENT, WHEN THERE IS NO LEGAL, BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES, WHEN MANAGEMENT CAN CHANGE THE RULES OF THE GAME AS WELL AS THE PLAYING FIELD AND YOU HAVE NO LEGAL RECOURSE!

THAT IS NOT NEGOTIATING OR BEING REPRESENTED!

AS YOU QUOTED EARLIER...."feel all warm and toasty inside." ISN'T THAT WHAT SAPA DOES BEST?

SAPA IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF "THE BOX OF CRA%"

agreed- I dont believe ive ever been a sapa cheerleader... they have less power than alpa... however- I believe any union other than alpa would represent us better.

 

[PCL_128]

however- I believe any union other than alpa would represent us better.

Any union other than ALPA wouldn't have the resources or experience to represent you properly.

 

[jea]

Jon,
I don't think I need to add anything!
Do the math?
PBR

Is it all about the money for you? All the money in the world isnt going to do a thing if your work life sucks... You know me? or you just did a bit of research? should i expect a warm box in my mailbox?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

agreed- I dont believe ive ever been a sapa cheerleader... they have less power than alpa... however- I believe any union other than alpa would represent us better.

If you had been here longer or made any attempt at getting informed, you would know that there have been efforts at several unions other than ALPA...none came to pass! Here's why: There are others that aren't SAPA cheerleaders that use the "any union other than ALPA" excuse not to vote for ALPA, but then there are always those that are against an inhouse union, and those against teamsters, and then the remaining group who are so apathetic they just can't be bothered to inform themselves about their own careers... and guess what we keep getting stuck with????? SAPA

 

[Andy Neill]

If you had been here longer or made any attempt at getting informed, you would know that there have been efforts at several unions other than ALPA...none came to pass! Here's why: There are others that aren't SAPA cheerleaders that use the "any union other than ALPA" excuse not to vote for ALPA, but then there are always those that are against an inhouse union, and those against teamsters, and then the remaining group who are so apathetic they just can't be bothered to inform themselves about their own careers... and guess what we keep getting stuck with????? SAPA

As I recall, on each of those votes, the ballot was constructed so that the voter could write in any union desired. If 50% + 1 had voted for union representation, the union receiving the most votes (even if less that 50% of the pilot population at SKYW) would have been brought in as the bargaining agent.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

As I recall, on each of those votes, the ballot was constructed so that the voter could write in any union desired. If 50% + 1 had voted for union representation, the union receiving the most votes (even if less that 50% of the pilot population at SKYW) would have been brought in as the bargaining agent.

That's true Andy...still goes back to individuals not wanting to take a chance voting for their choice(teamsters, ALPA, inhouse), since doing so they'd be taking a chance(as you mention above) of getting something other than their particular choice.

So when ALPA was on the ballot, if they wanted teamsters they wouldn't try to write in teamsters for fear that teamsters wouldn't get more votes by write in than ALPA which was on the ballot. Since they were against ALPA, didn't want to take that chance.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

threatening emails? I just checked- i must be off the threatening email list

They already know you are a kool-aid drinking follower. Don't worry, just keep on looking into the light!!! No need to work on you....

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Is it all about the money for you? All the money in the world isnt going to do a thing if your work life sucks... You know me? or you just did a bit of research? should i expect a warm box in my mailbox?

Yeah,
Money is important, QOL is more important, I was here while you were in JR High, trying to figger out why you wake up with a kickstand, in the morning. I don't know you, don't wanna know you, but I do know that the pilot group would be better off with out you on the senority list. You come on here and talk smack, trying to stir the $hit and parrot BH's dogma, guess what there are two sides to this job(yes, job, not career), and you have made your position clear. I will hope that on your next PC you get a sim instructor who is less than sympathetic to your dogma, hopefully a very senior guy who can't fund his impending retirement, or maybe a not as senior guy who couldn't get his first kids birthday off because of staffing issues, or maybe a guy who was gypped out of his App.D when he was flying the line, and thinks you are the problem, and just doesn't feel quite as charitable to the guy who just pi$$es him off. Enjoy that commute to STL after finishing that 16hr 4day, and commuting to and from the sim on your days off. I will just hope that your return from STL or wherever you have to go for sim is on a ticket as a passenger, and not a line pilot. You are boil on the a$$ of this profession(rapidly becomming a $hitty job).
Eat $hit and die
PBR

 

[jea]

Yeah,
Money is important, QOL is more important, I was here while you were in JR High, trying to figger out why you wake up with a kickstand, in the morning. I don't know you, don't wanna know you, but I do know that the pilot group would be better off with out you on the senority list. You come on here and talk smack, trying to stir the $hit and parrot BH's dogma, guess what there are two sides to this job(yes, job, not career), and you have made your position clear. I will hope that on your next PC you get a sim instructor who is less than sympathetic to your dogma, hopefully a very senior guy who can't fund his impending retirement, or maybe a not as senior guy who couldn't get his first kids birthday off because of staffing issues, or maybe a guy who was gypped out of his App.D when he was flying the line, and thinks you are the problem, and just doesn't feel quite as charitable to the guy who just pi$$es him off. Enjoy that commute to STL after finishing that 16hr 4day, and commuting to and from the sim on your days off. I will just hope that your return from STL or wherever you have to go for sim is on a ticket as a passenger, and not a line pilot. You are boil on the a$$ of this profession(rapidly becomming a $hitty job).
Eat $hit and die
PBR

do you need some asprin? you seem quite fussy...

 

[PBRstreetgang]

do you need some asprin? you seem quite fussy...

Naaah,
What I would love to see, is for you to fail upgrade and go back to your Radio Shack Asst. Mgr.(PM shift).
Eat $hit and choke on it!
PBR