SkyWest/Republic & Scope

[damnflyboy]

For all of the people trying to actually contribute to this thread I'll simply ask -

Would you rather fly for your current regional

or

Fly for Delta, United, Southwest etc that own the airframes. That's what General doesn't get.

Gup

I'd rather fly for option #2. But I can't with this current situation. If mainline guys want to stick to their guns with scope, then fine. But money is the ammo of this industry. You have to sacrifice something if you want to get your way. Cinching the rope-latter higher and higher to your tree-house club for the regional guys isn't the silver bullet.

My advice, for what it's worth-- take advantage of this pending pilot shortage. Get the line moving again.
1) Don't sell out on scope again (this may mean a pay/QOL stagnation or cut to stay competitive with discounters). This will allow you to grow.
2) Gobble up all of the "cheap labor" positions at the regionals. Hire like crazy, ideally from the bottom up. Because of the shortage, regionals will be forced to pay more for their labor because of ballooning initial training costs. This will also make regionals ultra-senior (and expensive).
3) Offer the new-hires a better salary. Again, this will take some wealth redistribution on pay-scale to put it bluntly.

The US is fat on pilots, but not for much longer. Until then, you have to pay the capitalism game right back at management. You can't just demand ransom without collateral. So you have to outfox them with sacrifice and unity. Of course, that is the gotcha. Sacrifice? Unity? What's that?!

Remember: "Look, without a hostage, there is no ransom. That's what ransom is. Those are the f-ing rules!" -Walter Sobchak

 

[the palm]

For all of the people trying to actually contribute to this thread I'll simply ask -

Would you rather fly for your current regional

or

Fly for Delta, United, Southwest etc that own the airframes. That's what General doesn't get.

Gup

ASA or Delta? ASA
ASA or United? ASA
ASA or Southwest? Southwest
ASA or FedEx? FedEx
ASA or UPS? UPS
ASA or American? ASA
ASA or CAL? ASA

My reasons for each differ a bit, but the general theme is starting over and becoming furlough fodder. I know the risks and with risks come rewards, but if it ain't broke....

 

[Dornier 335]

damnflyboy your avatar cracks me up! Where did you get it from?

On a serious note, ask all those mainline guys what the requirements were when they got hired. I bet you previous 121 PIC time wasn't required (and I am not referring to some hottie with double Ds). So, it's easy to point the finger at the regional guys and blame them for low-pay, scope etc. The majority just wants to pay their dues and move up (if there still is such a thing as an attractive airline job). If e.g the General or Scope hate RJs and the pilots flying them, how do they suggest getting the requirements in order to apply at Delta? Has mainline now become an exclusive club? What do you need to do then to get a job? Surrender one of your testicles?

Is there going to be a pilot shortage? Nah, maybe on the regional level, but not mainline.

 

[johnpeace]

Is there going to be a pilot shortage? Nah, maybe on the regional level, but not mainline.

Not yet...but all we're doing is kicking the can a few years down the road.

All of the 30-40 something yr. old regional captains they hire at DAL will hit the retirement age in 20-30 years. What happens when THEY leave?

 

[sayrejm]

The world will end in 2012. Why is everyone looking so far down the road ;-) <--- winky face = sarcasm

 

[Yuppyguppy]

ASA or Delta? ASA
ASA or United? ASA
ASA or Southwest? Southwest
ASA or FedEx? FedEx
ASA or UPS? UPS
ASA or American? ASA
ASA or CAL? ASA

My reasons for each differ a bit, but the general theme is starting over and becoming furlough fodder. I know the risks and with risks come rewards, but if it ain't broke....

DUMBEST POST OF THE DAY AWARD! By the way...you know nothing

 

[ASA_Aviator]

DUMBEST POST OF THE DAY AWARD! By the way...you know nothing

You can't judge someone else's decisions on where to work/not work. At least he is actually thinking about the pros/cons of all of the places instead of just making blind decisions. Believe it or not, there sometimes are great reasons to stay where you are if you're at a regional.

If you're a captain making low $90s, or a line check airman making a little over $110,000, you may not want to take that 50-60% pay cut for several years, flying reserve and bopping around on the bottom of a 12,000 pilot list.

 

[damnflyboy]

damnflyboy your avatar cracks me up! Where did you get it from?

It came to me in a dream. And by dream I mean reality.

I'm building a giant foam-mascot costume of the dreaded red arrow so I can rampage the private lives of those responsible. It will be purely therapeutic...stealing birthday cakes, disrupting children's softball games with a herd of ostriches, and popping out of the bedroom shadows screaming on anniversary nights.

 

[GuppyWN]

I can't see your trips but unless you're on reserve I don't want to hear it

Gup

 

[Medeco]

It came to me in a dream. And by dream I mean reality.

I'm building a giant foam-mascot costume of the dreaded red arrow so I can rampage the private lives of those responsible. It will be purely therapeutic...stealing birthday cakes, disrupting children's softball games with a herd of ostriches, and popping out of the bedroom shadows screaming on anniversary nights.

That's good. Maybe wear it to RGT class when SH shows or the crew room on a town hall day.

 

[Draginass]

Surrender one of your testicles?

DALPA's already sold both theirs to Anderson.

 

[Lear70]

Moderator Reviewed:

No violation of the ToS. Quit reporting things that aren't ToS violations.

Thanks,

/mod

 

[johnsonrod]

ASA or Delta? ASA
ASA or United? ASA
ASA or Southwest? Southwest
ASA or FedEx? FedEx
ASA or UPS? UPS
ASA or American? ASA
ASA or CAL? ASA

My reasons for each differ a bit, but the general theme is starting over and becoming furlough fodder. I know the risks and with risks come rewards, but if it ain't broke....

What? You are nuts. ASA over Delta? What are you smoking? Furlough fodder when they have more cash on hand than anyone else, and are in expansion mode with recent hiring and picking up MD90s? Throw in a bunch of retirements coming up from FNWA pilots, and I would say it is a fairly safe bet. I wish I could get an interview over there. You really don't know what you are talking about. The General is right to call you hairy palm.

 

[ePilot22]

The General is right to call you hairy palm.

Good to see that you made it to another general thread. You even capitalize his name. Cute.




eP.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Let's see here:

Days off I want - yes

Can bid holidays/weekends off - yes

Can bid decent trips - yes

Work with good people - yes

Happy with the size of my equipment - It's all how you use it.

Money - Could be more but it pays the bills and buys the toys

Any danger of furlough - friggin' remote

What does a "major" have to offer?

 

[Jetjockey]

When you fly for a regional, your fighting for scraps from the Major airline partner. Someone will always be your Daddy.

 

[Dubya]

When you fly for a regional, your fighting for scraps from the Major airline partner. Someone will always be your Daddy.

What does this mean? This is absurdly stupid. I have a few attorney friends. One makes crazy bank with a huge lawfirm. Another makes right around 100K prosecuting in a moderate sized city. The prosecutor graduated higher in the same class as the other. None of these attorneys sit around in a forum and bash each other for their chosen position.

Play the same game with doctors. Small town practice v. big city plastic surgeon. Is the big shot plastic surgeon the general practitioner's "daddy"?

In the words of Mr. Yosemite Sam....pilots "is sooooo stupid".

 

[likeitis]

What does this mean? This is absurdly stupid. I have a few attorney friends. One makes crazy bank with a huge lawfirm. Another makes right around 100K prosecuting in a moderate sized city. The prosecutor graduated higher in the same class as the other. None of these attorneys sit around in a forum and bash each other for their chosen position.

Play the same game with doctors. Small town practice v. big city plastic surgeon. Is the big shot plastic surgeon the general practitioner's "daddy"?

In the words of Mr. Yosemite Sam....pilots "is sooooo stupid".

Does your crazy bank liar friend control the amount of work your other liar friend gets? Your comparison is retarded. I have plenty of friends in the medical field but they don't have scope clauses that restricts others work. So what he/she said makes complete sense.

Your point would be valid except for the fact that the major pilots have control. Have they used that control wisely lately? Of course not but the commuters are still the bitch to them and hopefully they soon will make the commuters a scarce entity.

 

[Going2Baja]

Our #2 guy came into our recurrent ground and stated the following:

If scope is not relaxed by mainline carriers in the next wave of negotiations (which most airline CEO's state is a realistic assumption, he added), companies like SkyWest Inc and Republic Airways will have a choice: shrink and die or compete and survive.

Now, why would he say something like this?

UAL/Cont have announced that they will continue their 50+ seat protection. This is going to be the way of the future. Many mainliner's have had guys on furlough for 10+ years and are over it. Let the regional's shrink and the mainline grow....Make the move as soon as you can. For the senior guys that cry foul; you knew the risks when you stayed at your regional - get over it. The majority at DAL also wants the smaller jets and we will fly them for appropriate rates. In fact the E-170+ size jet rates are already set in the current contract. Good luck to all, the next 5-10 years are going to be REALLY interesting!

Baja.

 

[StaySeated]

UAL/Cont have announced that they will continue their 50+ seat protection. This is going to be the way of the future. Many mainliner's have had guys on furlough for 10+ years and are over it. Let the regional's shrink and the mainline grow....Make the move as soon as you can. For the senior guys that cry foul; you knew the risks when you stayed at your regional - get over it. The majority at DAL also wants the smaller jets and we will fly them for appropriate rates. In fact the E-170+ size jet rates are already set in the current contract. Good luck to all, the next 5-10 years are going to be REALLY interesting!

Baja.

It definitely will not take 10 years.

A healthy airtran, jetblue, and the monolith SWA have driven 70 seat and smaller aircraft to the graveyard. You simply can't compete against strong LLC's with an RJ. This has little to do with passenger "little jet" mentality and a lot to do with CASM, RASM and yields.

There are a few markets where a small jet can charge a premium only because an LCC doesn't serve those markets.

There are also a few markets that provide a significant amount of feed for their mainline partner.

Other than those few markets, the 70 seat and smaller jet is dead. Republic learned quickly that RJ's don't work against airtran, even with their laughable rj pay rates. Thankfully Republic is making massive capacity adjustments very quickly.

Continental and UAL already have 50 seat protection, it is called the economy. Take a look at the mainline carriers that have unlimited or very large 50-70 seat allowances. How many of those gauge aircraft are being added? How many of those gauge aircraft are being parked?

Scope needs to focus on the 190 and larger aircraft. That is the real threat today and for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jetjockey]

It definitely will not take 10 years.

A healthy airtran, jetblue, and the monolith SWA have driven 70 seat and smaller aircraft to the graveyard. You simply can't compete against strong LLC's with an RJ. This has little to do with passenger "little jet" mentality and a lot to do with CASM, RASM and yields.

There are a few markets where a small jet can charge a premium only because an LCC doesn't serve those markets.

There are also a few markets that provide a significant amount of feed for their mainline partner.

Other than those few markets, the 70 seat and smaller jet is dead. Republic learned quickly that RJ's don't work against airtran, even with their laughable rj pay rates. Thankfully Republic is making massive capacity adjustments very quickly.

Continental and UAL already have 50 seat protection, it is called the economy. Take a look at the mainline carriers that have unlimited or very large 50-70 seat allowances. How many of those gauge aircraft are being added? How many of those gauge aircraft are being parked?

Scope needs to focus on the 190 and larger aircraft. That is the real threat today and for the foreseeable future.

Spot on, except that the new UAL will have CAL's scope.

 

[curtaindriver]

Realistic??? What? Mainline pilots are MORE inclined to create tougher Scope. Why? We have all watched this industry go to heck thanks to RJs. The main reason Scope was relieved was because BKs forced it. Legacies have been doing better, paying off some debt, and contracts are coming due. DL's contract is up in 2012, UAL/CAL are doing their joint contract now (they really want to tighten scope big time), USAir wants to eventually get an agreement with their own pilots (if they get it together), etc. Doesn't really sound good for regionals, unless they try to buy everyone up and create monopolies. But, there isn't just one monopoly now, there are a few---Pinnacle (plus Colgan and Mesaba), SkyWest (plus ASA and XJT), Republic, and the Mesa group. What does that mean? There will still be whipsaws against each other. So, unless the large Regionals go for an "Independence" like solo project, they will start to suffer, and new FAA rest/fatigue rules and new hiring minimums just won't help the situation. And don't forget the new liability law that now places the legacy liable for a crash at the Regional level. That won't help either. Oh well.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey General, I think the assumption stated above is actually scope NOT being loosened. that's how I read it.

CD

 

[General Lee]

Hey General, I think the assumption stated above is actually scope NOT being loosened. that's how I read it.

CD

It will be tightened and more restrictive to benefit Mainline pilots. Better?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[curtaindriver]

It will be tightened and more restrictive to benefit Mainline pilots. Better?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sorry bro, I wasn't referring to what you said....completely agree with you. I was referring to the original post......that the CEO said it was a "realistic assumption" that scope would NOT be relaxed. That's how I read that statement. I thought your reply to it was being interpreted the opposite.......I could have been wrong.

CD