Skywest in Aspen

[XPOO]

Hmmm. Min in trail spacing on final at ASE is five miles as ATC has to protect for a missed approach by the preceeding ac minus an ability to vector.



Agree. All dispatchers that work ASE should be required to do some minimum number of observations to the ASE airport. I've been here approaching 10 years and have never had a dispatcher JS in the actual. Very few other pilots have seen them either.

Hmmm.....might have something to do with the load factors in, but mostly OUT, of ASE in the CRJ-700.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Agree. All dispatchers that work ASE should be required to do some minimum number of observations to the ASE airport. I've been here approaching 10 years and have never had a dispatcher JS in the actual. Very few other pilots have seen them either.

It is definitely #1 on my list of places to go on my observation flights. Between MTOW issues out of ASE and a late inbound flight from SGU, it just hasn't worked out for me the 3 times I tried to do it. I plan on trying again for my next go-round of annual observation...or just when I happen to get a couple days off without previous plans.

 

[flyjumpseat]

I'll chime in as another dispatcher, that (almost) all ASE flights get the alternate fuel without actually listing the DEN or GJT as an alternate. I remember one ORD ASE flight I ran without the 'extra' fuel I didn't allow them to pass DEN without a fuel stop. The wind is just too variable there in ASE. We may not be IN the plane, but we do know what its all about. Well, most of us.

 

[XPOO]

Also, we have some very good video that was shot during the proving runs that all of us has seen numerous times.

 

[bmpilot2003]

Hmmm. Min in trail spacing on final at ASE is five miles as ATC has to protect for a missed approach by the preceeding ac minus an ability to vector.



Agree. All dispatchers that work ASE should be required to do some minimum number of observations to the ASE airport. I've been here approaching 10 years and have never had a dispatcher JS in the actual. Very few other pilots have seen them either.

I've had dispatchers in my jumpseat, not into ASE though.

 

[Russ]

We may not be IN the plane, but we do know what its all about. Well, most of us.

Not inferring anything. ASE is the most specialized flying we do and it can't be truly appreciated without seeing it. Especially in the wx, at night.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

When I picture a SKYW CA & FO on a overnight in ASE I think of the scene when they get out of the red Lamborghini with the furry boots on.

Yeah,
Instead of the lambo its a Yugo and the only thing furry are the Captains legs, back and pubes poking out of his Borat grade swimsuit. The F/O on the other hand isn't old enough to have pubes! This visual should provoke some nightmares!
PBR

 

[TheJCNIs]

The only good plane for ASE was the Avro RJ85 & BAE-146. I think it is crazy that they make you guys fly those CRJ in there. I now fly to eagle and drive!

 

[CFIT]

What is this "Emergency Extraction" that I keep reading about? Sounds like a missed approach that could lead to disasterous consequences.

With the way it is worded you all can have Aspen.

The extraction that someone else has described is fairly accurate which is .8 DME pass the localizer and a left turn to 275 degrees, flown at V2, 28 degrees of bank 2 engine and 25 degrees of bank single engine. The gauranteed terrain clearence issue is misleading in that the generous lattitudes of precision are not specifically there which is a mile either side of the desired course and for the most part +/- a thousand feet.

I have personally done quite a bit of the actual testing in the aircraft and have done the extraction many times, I even demostrated it with the FAA in the jump seat simulated single engine (one at idle) and only put the other engine to climb thrust, not APR.

Simply put, it can be done. We have an extensive course and evaluation for ASE and have a specific PC required eval for the specific crews that go in there. Very few SkyWest pilots are ASE qualified and current.


As far as the tailwind remark, Im raising the BS flag on that one.

 

[dispatchguy]

Simply put, it can be done. We have an extensive course and evaluation for ASE and have a specific PC required eval for the specific crews that go in there. Very few SkyWest pilots are ASE qualified and current.

As far as the tailwind remark, Im raising the BS flag on that one.

Somewhere on the PC here I have a copy of the SKW training guide for SKW; very well written.

At AWI, we had one BAe146 that had the 15-kt tailwind limitation for takeoff, a BAe146-100, only for use at ASE.

Like I said, the JS ride should be mandatory for dispatchers. I didnt appreciate the complexity until I saw it myself. I understand that Lynx in their Q400s can land on 33; THAT would be a JS ride!

 

[Brazilgun]

There is flying and there is ASE flying. Until you have done it, you don't know what you're talking about.
A lot of times you will get a wind check right prior to MAP, but after the MAP, SKYWEST doesn't want you to do the extraction unless you cannot see the runway.
I much rather explain why I landed with +2knots above my limitation than risk 60+ peoples lives in between two narrow canyons with a tailwind pushing you closer to the mountain.
For those that have done the extraction procedure, I think you would agree. But that is just my opnion.

 

[172driver]

I would much rather you make the decision to go elsewhere if conditions are so marginal that your only choices may become violating limitations or (god forbid) turning left out of ASE. You have no idea whether or not those two knots may be the last of your brake energy.

 

[FishandFly]

There is flying and there is ASE flying. Until you have done it, you don't know what you're talking about.
A lot of times you will get a wind check right prior to MAP, but after the MAP, SKYWEST doesn't want you to do the extraction unless you cannot see the runway.
I much rather explain why I landed with +2knots above my limitation than risk 60+ peoples lives in between two narrow canyons with a tailwind pushing you closer to the mountain.
For those that have done the extraction procedure, I think you would agree. But that is just my opnion.

For informations sake, what do you guys brief (and do) when you have a fed riding the jumpseat?

 

[siucavflight]

I would much rather you make the decision to go elsewhere if conditions are so marginal that your only choices may become violating limitations or (god forbid) turning left out of ASE. You have no idea whether or not those two knots may be the last of your brake energy.

True, but what if the conditions are not there till the last minute?

 

[urflyingme?!]

Hey fish and fly. You're an idiot. I'm sorru, "ooohh it was gusting to 12!! when they were cleared!" "Ohh they were on SHORT FINAL and it was even worse!" What the hell do you want them to do! Freaking moron, you suck

 

[FishandFly]

Hey jackass,

It's not a 2 knot difference I'm discussing, it's the mentality that it is our job to fly the airplane with little to no regard for the fars, company procedure, and poh.

What in the world do you think a limitation is anyway? Oh, I get it.. A suggestion.

 

[siucavflight]

FishanFly,
I think that the discussion is more of is it alright to break a limitation in the interest of safety, my answer is yes.

 

[FishandFly]

I agree with siding with the interest of safety, but think the same should apply when receiving wx that exceeds limitations.

I'm still wondering what happens when you have a fed on board, simply because a couple of other guys have said that they have performed the extraction procedure numerous times, never landed with >10kts tailwind, and have even performed the extraction single engine. This seems to trouble the posts of others who have labeled the extraction procedure sure death, 28deg bank and all.

 

[siucavflight]

Fish,
No doubt if the release comes and the weather is forcast to be such that the landing weather conditions are going to exceed landing limitations without having a safe and leagal alternate, then the flight should never leave. However if things change, and your only safe place of landing is one which will cause a deviation from limitations I believe you will be hard pressed to find a fed who will violate you, because you acted in the interest of safety.

 

[Russ]

Fish
ASE is a unique case. You have to accept that if you're to understand. I mean no disrespect when I say ASE is like nothing 95% of most regional pilots have to deal with. Obviously we receive specialized training that pretty much any airline guy could pass.
I'm still not 100% sure we should be flying to ASE especially at night, but we do. Pay grades far above mine determine that. We do things vastly different in ASE than we do in other airports. The extraction procedure is considered an emergency in the eyes of SkyWest, the FAA and in mine as well. Having it labeled as such isn't simply to scare you, (tho it does) it allows the PIC a greater flexibility to make decisions from a FAR viewpoint. To answer your fed question. If somwhere on final I received landing clearance (usually near the DBL VOR, about 12-15 flying miles from the runway) and received a wind report beyond limits, I would refuse the clearance and hold/divert. The same holds true to the LOC MAP. Receiving the two kt over the limit that is mentioned inside the MAP means it's considered an emergency to go around. Given that my choices are to land with 12 kts or to put myself into a self induced emergency, I'll do the former. I'd rather roll off the end slow that lawn dart the hills at high speed. I also feel confident that my decision would stand any critical judgment the FAA might might give it.
You can argue ad nauseam that means we shouln't be flying there to begin with, but that's for the FAA and SkyWest managment to determine. I'm concerned with the here and now of flying the plane.