Skywest CRJ200

[John Pennekamp]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the next Darwin Awards candidate. Flaps 0 Vref in the neighborhood of 180 kts with maximium tire speed of 182 knots GROUND SPEED (compute that one, genius). But, it must be ok because training taught you it wasn't an emergency. Since you chronically undervalue your job with your posts here, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you minimize importance of the flight crew's judgement when it comes to abnormal or emergency situations in the airplane. After all, we're all just overpaid bus drivers, right? First of all, I hope you're not a Captain. Secondly, I hope the SKW training department is sharp enough to weed you out when you go through upgrade. Then again, I have serious doubts that you're actually a pilot at all. Which is it? Disgruntled dispatcher? Angry ramper? PO'ed gate agent? Or...worse...arrogant, young, know it all F/O who constantly marvels at how much smarter he is than the Captains he flies with. If you're the latter, just remember that nobody will EVER fault you for erring on the side of caution in this business. Then again, I don't particularly like you, so have at it cowboy. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll only kill yourself one day instead of a planeload of passengers.

I really really hope you're some management guy who comes on here to stir the pot. I'd hate to think a professional pilot would be as stupid as you seem to be.

Well said. You beat me to it. Newman is a tool, and I suspect he only comes on here to flamebait. He's probably the latest incarnation of D'Angelo.

 

[mynameisjim]

I've talked to Airport firemen about this type of stuff before. One guy was telling me they'd prefer it if we declared an emergency when it's a borderline case. The reasoning he gave was it's a lot easier to respond when they have a few minutes notice.

The fireman also said he loves his job, and getting called out for something is a lot of fun, and what he does for a living. He said he "gets to go out", not has to.

Think back to your first couple of months on reserve at your first airline, weren't you kinda hoping for some flying now and then? I imagine it's similar for them sitting in the firehouse playing ping pong.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Too many of you people have never flown anything other than students and passengers. I know you had to have plenty of experience to get hired because your logbook read 253 hours.

Are you serious??? If landing 10 knots fast on a 10000' runway with flaps 30 is something you need to roll the trucks for then you need to take a leave of absence for a testicular reassignment. (No offense to you ladies with balls, just the pilot puppy mill types of all genders to which I am referring.) I am not saying that a flaps fail at 0 in Aspen is not a big deal, but come on!!! Are you a pilot, or are you a boxed in and scared little puppy!

It's actually more like 30 kts fast, and it's not a question of running out of runway. The issue is that, depending on weight you could be very close to or at maximum tire speed. Even if you're light enough where that isn't an issue you're still landing an airplane full of people in an abnormal landing configuration. If one of them so much as stubs their big toe on the way out the door, the Feds will probably be the first to ask why you didn't declare an emergency. I would roll the trucks without a second thought. It's just the prudent thing to do. It's what they are there for. I am about the furthest you can get from a puppy mill guy and I spent about 8 years flying all kinds of beat up freighters before I came to work here. Care to question my judgement?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Always declare and roll the trucks when landing with any abnormal. If you don't and something bad happens, the company, lawyers and press WILL destroy you. This litigous society of ours is full of armchair quarterbacks that think they know more than the guy in the left seat. Don't give them ammo to use against you.

Declaring and asking for the equipment is free. Do it!

 

[embdrvr]

First of all, I hope you're not a Captain. Secondly, I hope the SKW training department is sharp enough to weed you out when you go through upgrade.

Or...worse...arrogant, young, know it all F/O who constantly marvels at how much smarter he is than the Captains he flies with. If you're the latter, just remember that nobody will EVER fault you for erring on the side of caution in this business.

He's an FO and probably will stay that way for a while since a few folks in the training department know who NewWoman really is and read his posts. He'll have an "interesting" time going through upgrade. SkyW is an up or out airline.

Costs nothing to declare an emergency and you've got to fill out an irregularity report anyway. Last thing anyone needs to engage in is monday morning quarterbacking of the crew. They made it to the gate safely. That's what matters.

 

[Soverytired]

Except for the fact that we live in a sue happy society, and emotional trauma can pay big dividends in court.

True that, but what do I care? It's the company's job to explain why they can't maintain an aircraft well enough to operate in a normal fashion.

What's the FAA gonna do . . . say that you were TOO safe? Hardly.

But I could sure see you getting thrown in jail if you DON"T declare and emergency and brace 'em and then the nose collapses.

 

[FlySacto]

He's an FO and probably will stay that way for a while since a few folks in the training department know who NewWoman really is and read his posts. He'll have an "interesting" time going through upgrade. SkyW is an up or out airline.

Costs nothing to declare an emergency and you've got to fill out an irregularity report anyway. Last thing anyone needs to engage in is monday morning quarterbacking of the crew. They made it to the gate safely. That's what matters.

YGTBSM that this guy's for real! Good job guys. I just hope no one in back spilled their spit cups on their NASCAR jackets.

 

[Soverytired]

Too many of you people have never flown anything other than students and passengers. I know you had to have plenty of experience to get hired because your logbook read 253 hours.

Are you serious??? If landing 10 knots fast on a 10000' runway with flaps 30 is something you need to roll the trucks for then you need to take a leave of absence for a testicular reassignment. (No offense to you ladies with balls, just the pilot puppy mill types of all genders to which I am referring.) I am not saying that a flaps fail at 0 in Aspen is not a big deal, but come on!!! Are you a pilot, or are you a boxed in and scared little puppy!

Are YOU serious? Holy cripe! "Testicular reassignment"? "Scared little puppy"?

Bravery, balls, and ego have nothing to do with 121 passenger flying. Professionalism and safety do. I'm not exactly who you're trying to impress out there . . . believe me, other pilots don't give a crap what you do, except when you embarass the rest of us by pretending you're Chuck Yeager.

 

[bandit317]

I had a buddy who had a flaps 0 landing at Dulles. Plenty of runway, no biggy. Declared an emergency, braced the pax, ran the checklists, briefed the pax and FA, and followed the company procedures. Landed without incident. Filled out the paperwork. What he wasn't expecting, though, was the CVR to be pulled. Think about that the next time you cowboys are afraid to declare an emergency. He never had to explain himself, everything was by the book. I wonder what questions he would have been asked if he didn't declare an emergency and made the mx writeup after landing - flap failure during appraoch. Hmmm, how about "why wasn't an emergency declared?" being asked by the company, FAA, and NTSB. After all, "you had a write up of a flight control malfuntion."

 

[embdrvr]

Is bracing the pax recommended by your company?

 

[twinbeech]

Are YOU serious? Holy cripe! "Testicular reassignment"? "Scared little puppy"?

Bravery, balls, and ego have nothing to do with 121 passenger flying. Professionalism and safety do. I'm not exactly who you're trying to impress out there . . . believe me, other pilots don't give a crap what you do, except when you embarass the rest of us by pretending you're Chuck Yeager.

Sweet! I finally got someone to bite on this juicy one. Come on guys, I posted this at 3am after drinking Croc's out of their dollar Coronas!

Personally I think better safe than sorry, but I also don't want to needlessly scare the passengers. There is obviously a big difference between failing at 30 versus 0 or asymetrical. Cover your arse and declare, have the trucks on standby or roll them if you want to. I think having the pax brace is a little much, but it is your perrogative.

The point is that you should talk it over with your flying partner and come up with a plan. Then completely relate everything to the f/a and the pax. Now land the effin airplane, go get a beer at the hotel bar and call it a day. If you really play up your Yeager status, maybe the f/a will come congratulate you at the end of the night!

 

[Poahi]

I've worked for two CRJ operators and all the check airmen I've talked to say that if it's just a flaps failure and the flaps are not asymetrical, bracing the pax is overdoing it. Declaring an emergency wasn't spelled out, but it was recommended.

 

[Socalplt]

SkyWest actually put out a memo a couple years ago stating this "wasn't an emergency situation unless landing on a short runway" and "not to declare an emergency".

Bracing the pax is overkill.

Assuming you don't float halfway down the runway and then have to overuse the brakes, most of the passengers would notice anything different.

On a 10,000' runway you shouldn't even need the brakes until below 80kts.

 

[Edge540]

I think this is one of those situations where there is no pre-set right answer. A lot of times the flaps don't fail at 0. My good friend had a flap failure at 30, symmetrical so no big deal. He said his pansy FO threw a fit and almost hopped on the radio and declared an emergency. They were landing at MEM. What a crock.

You guys need to learn to take advantage of our (hopefully) built in Critical Thinking Skills. If the flaps fail at 0 or 8, sure declare away. If the flaps fail asymmetrical, sure declare away. Other than that, why waste everyones time so they can watch a normal landing?

And if you can't land this airplane without flaps without fu*king it up, I worry about you. I really do.

 

[ArcticFlier]

~47000 pounds~

Vref +5 is 178 kts if memory serves.

Here's a question:

Is the Vtire of 182 kts for the MLG tires, the NLG tire, or all three?

I've done one in SFO...............didn't even get the BTMS up to 3's across the board...............and it was a warm day...................sun was out.

 

[CFIT]

I've had 4 actual no flap landings and train in the actual aircraft with each Captain type ride to a balk approach. By it self, it's not that big of deal, but if the runway was slick or on the edge of being long enough, then fine pull the trigger with the emergency. About 10 years ago SkyWest had a rash of flap failures that was ultimately caused by some comtaminated grease that was used to service the aircraft, if you were in the plane back then (I was) then you probably got your share of no flap landings.

 

[flyby]

~47000 pounds~

Would 47,000 be less than the MLW? That's a lot of aluminum for 50 seats.

 

[svcta]

If memory serves MLW is 47000.

 

[Soverytired]

I don't think it's just about the VMax Tire speed . . . the structural warning is because pilots are not accustomed to landing the plane at such a flat angle. It's incredibly easy to do the classic C172 "3-point landing" in a CRJ with zero flaps. . which the nosewheel in the CRJ probably wasn't designed for.

As to the "brace" . . . offhand I can't think of ANY checklist in my manual that ever specifically requires the "brace" command. It is, however, included as part of our standard "brief the f/a on what to do in case of emergency".

So yeah, I guess it's about judgment. Probably no right or wrong answer on this, other than "alls well that ends well".

 

[CFIT]

At straight in ref speed the deck angle is 2 1/2 degrees above the horizon, not below. If you can hit the nose wheel first on a no flap landing, you worked pretty hard to make it happen.