Skywest CRJ200

[Capt10Matt]

Anyone know anything about an emergency declared in Bakersfield, CA that happened today? Airport closed down for about 15min or so, looks like they landed flaps up for some reason. Hydraulic failure?

 

[Edge540]

Anyone know anything about an emergency declared in Bakersfield, CA that happened today? Airport closed down for about 15min or so, looks like they landed flaps up for some reason. Hydraulic failure?

Dunno about what happened, but the flaps on the 200s are electric... and they break a lot.

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

In every case I've seen, as long as you have the required landing distance (which BFL does), a flap failure by itself is not an emergency.

 

[bandit317]

In every case I've seen, as long as you have the required landing distance (which BFL does), a flap failure by itself is not an emergency.

Really? Our company considers it an emergency and so does every other 121 carrier I know of. It is an abnormal landing on the CRJ, and depending on weight, it can be very close to max tire speed. You should always declare an emergency with a flap failure so that CFR is standing by in case of tire burst, brake overheat, or running off the end of the runway.

 

[CFIT]

A flap failure by itself is not an emergency, if the only runway is questionable such as braking action, etc. maybe so.

If your company mandates it to be an emergency, so be it.

It's not that big of a deal, I've had a few myself, no biggie.

 

[svcta]

A flap failure by itself is not an emergency, if the only runway is questionable such as braking action, etc. maybe so.

If your company mandates it to be an emergency, so be it.

It's not that big of a deal, I've had a few myself, no biggie.

The point is that in the CRJ-200 a flap failure(0 flap landing) is kind of a big deal. You're dealing with an airplane that has Ref speeds normally around 130-140 or more even, factor out the flaps and you can see a Ref of 180 or even a little more if memory serves. Tell me how landing a 47000# airplane at 180+ kts is not that big of a deal? We used to do it in the sim. ....what a beeotch of an approach.

I'm sure that in a Merlin it's not a big deal, though.

 

[Soverytired]

"NOTE: Improper landing technique during a flaps failure can generate nose gear loads sufficient to cause structural damage"


I'd put the pax in the brace position just in case (this happened to one of my FO's with a Mesa check airman). And declare an emergency. What's the big deal? You're going to be filing the same paperwork no matter what happens anyway.

Giving a rat's ass about declaring an emergency is private pilot stuff. You can declare an emergency and explain your specific needs to the controllers without tying up arrivals/departures anyway.

Hell, you can CANCEL an emergency declaration if you figure out a fix ("Oh . . . THAT's the flap lever. Ooops" )

Really, it's NBD.

 

[rickair7777]

It doesn't cost anything to declare the emergency, but you have to consider VERY, VERY carefully before you brace 'em up...that will create serious emotional truama in some pax, what with the FA screaming her head off the whole way down. I wouldn't do it for a no-flapper, if conditions were forgiving.

 

[Soverytired]

It doesn't cost anything to declare the emergency, but you have to consider VERY, VERY carefully before you brace 'em up...that will create serious emotional truama in some pax, what with the FA screaming her head off the whole way down. I wouldn't do it for a no-flapper, if conditions were forgiving.

I understand what you're saying, but emotional trauma just means you lost a future customer (they won't be flying anymore); having a bunch of passengers get their necks snapped and backs broken from whiplash as the nosewheel collapses at 200 mph is quite a bit more serious. I've landed a CRJ at flaps 0 myself in training (aircraft training), and it's NBD, but that NOTE was put in the checklist for a reason.

Besides, this is the sort of thing you have at least 45 minutes (reserve fuel) to calmly explain to the passengers what's going on. If you play your hand right, no one gets hurt, the passengers think you're some sort of flying god, and everyone goes home happy.

 

[rtmcfi]

A flap failure by itself is not an emergency, if the only runway is questionable such as braking action, etc. maybe so.

If your company mandates it to be an emergency, so be it.

It's not that big of a deal, I've had a few myself, no biggie.

On the CRJ are the flaps considered flight controls?

 

[geardown]

Except for the fact that we live in a sue happy society, and emotional trauma can pay big dividends in court.

 

[wmuflyguy]

On the CRJ are the flaps considered flight controls?

I would consider them secondary flight controls, but does it matter what aircraft it is?

 

[rickair7777]

I would consider them secondary flight controls, but does it matter what aircraft it is?

Flaps are secondary. But spoilers, for example, can be primary or secondary, depending on the aircraft.

 

[rtmcfi]

I would consider them secondary flight controls, but does it matter what aircraft it is?

Nope, I don't really know why I specified the CRJ. I was just kinda wondering if there was anything in the SkyWest SOPs pertaining to the failure of flight control systems, and notification of the FAA, and or the NTSB.

 

[BLing]

A flap failure by itself is not an emergency, if the only runway is questionable such as braking action, etc. maybe so.

If your company mandates it to be an emergency, so be it.

It's not that big of a deal, I've had a few myself, no biggie.

Well, when Vapp Flaps zero (depending on weight) is about the same as Vtire it is a big deal, especially at high altitude airports. You are right, in a giant 172 it is no biggie. But in the CRJ or any other jet it usually is a biggie!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Or.. how about this.. Crew had a no-flap. Captain wanted to declare an emergency. Trucks rolled out. Airplane landed. Trucks rolled back in. No big deal.

Or... alternately... Crew had a no-flap. Captain decided not to declare an emergency. Airplane landed and blew a tire then went off the runway. Very big deal.

I swear, next time I think I need to take a dump I'm gonna come on here and post a question asking for technique, seeing as how everybody is such an expert.

Nice job SKW crew. Enough said. You'd think this place was airliners.net.

 

[Bako Cap]

BFL shut down for 15 minutes?? That must have created havoc throughout the Golden Empire. Oh NO!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess it might have confused a bunch of those IFTA students though and then it would be an emergency.

 

[HelloNewman]

Really? Our company considers it an emergency and so does every other 121 carrier I know of. It is an abnormal landing on the CRJ, and depending on weight, it can be very close to max tire speed. You should always declare an emergency with a flap failure so that CFR is standing by in case of tire burst, brake overheat, or running off the end of the runway.

yet another paranoid scardie cat. A flap failure is NOT an emergency. In fact in training we were taught is not an emergency unless combined with other failures. Sheesh too many people live in fear.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

yet another paranoid scardie cat. A flap failure is NOT an emergency. In fact in training we were taught is not an emergency unless combined with other failures. Sheesh too many people live in fear.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the next Darwin Awards candidate. Flaps 0 Vref in the neighborhood of 180 kts with maximium tire speed of 182 knots GROUND SPEED (compute that one, genius). But, it must be ok because training taught you it wasn't an emergency. Since you chronically undervalue your job with your posts here, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you minimize importance of the flight crew's judgement when it comes to abnormal or emergency situations in the airplane. After all, we're all just overpaid bus drivers, right? First of all, I hope you're not a Captain. Secondly, I hope the SKW training department is sharp enough to weed you out when you go through upgrade. Then again, I have serious doubts that you're actually a pilot at all. Which is it? Disgruntled dispatcher? Angry ramper? PO'ed gate agent? Or...worse...arrogant, young, know it all F/O who constantly marvels at how much smarter he is than the Captains he flies with. If you're the latter, just remember that nobody will EVER fault you for erring on the side of caution in this business. Then again, I don't particularly like you, so have at it cowboy. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll only kill yourself one day instead of a planeload of passengers.

I really really hope you're some management guy who comes on here to stir the pot. I'd hate to think a professional pilot would be as stupid as you seem to be.

 

[twinbeech]

Too many of you people have never flown anything other than students and passengers. I know you had to have plenty of experience to get hired because your logbook read 253 hours.

Are you serious??? If landing 10 knots fast on a 10000' runway with flaps 30 is something you need to roll the trucks for then you need to take a leave of absence for a testicular reassignment. (No offense to you ladies with balls, just the pilot puppy mill types of all genders to which I am referring.) I am not saying that a flaps fail at 0 in Aspen is not a big deal, but come on!!! Are you a pilot, or are you a boxed in and scared little puppy!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the next Darwin Awards candidate. Flaps 0 Vref in the neighborhood of 180 kts with maximium tire speed of 182 knots GROUND SPEED (compute that one, genius). But, it must be ok because training taught you it wasn't an emergency. Since you chronically undervalue your job with your posts here, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you minimize importance of the flight crew's judgement when it comes to abnormal or emergency situations in the airplane. After all, we're all just overpaid bus drivers, right? First of all, I hope you're not a Captain. Secondly, I hope the SKW training department is sharp enough to weed you out when you go through upgrade. Then again, I have serious doubts that you're actually a pilot at all. Which is it? Disgruntled dispatcher? Angry ramper? PO'ed gate agent? Or...worse...arrogant, young, know it all F/O who constantly marvels at how much smarter he is than the Captains he flies with. If you're the latter, just remember that nobody will EVER fault you for erring on the side of caution in this business. Then again, I don't particularly like you, so have at it cowboy. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll only kill yourself one day instead of a planeload of passengers.

I really really hope you're some management guy who comes on here to stir the pot. I'd hate to think a professional pilot would be as stupid as you seem to be.

Well said. You beat me to it. Newman is a tool, and I suspect he only comes on here to flamebait. He's probably the latest incarnation of D'Angelo.

 

[mynameisjim]

I've talked to Airport firemen about this type of stuff before. One guy was telling me they'd prefer it if we declared an emergency when it's a borderline case. The reasoning he gave was it's a lot easier to respond when they have a few minutes notice.

The fireman also said he loves his job, and getting called out for something is a lot of fun, and what he does for a living. He said he "gets to go out", not has to.

Think back to your first couple of months on reserve at your first airline, weren't you kinda hoping for some flying now and then? I imagine it's similar for them sitting in the firehouse playing ping pong.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Too many of you people have never flown anything other than students and passengers. I know you had to have plenty of experience to get hired because your logbook read 253 hours.

Are you serious??? If landing 10 knots fast on a 10000' runway with flaps 30 is something you need to roll the trucks for then you need to take a leave of absence for a testicular reassignment. (No offense to you ladies with balls, just the pilot puppy mill types of all genders to which I am referring.) I am not saying that a flaps fail at 0 in Aspen is not a big deal, but come on!!! Are you a pilot, or are you a boxed in and scared little puppy!

It's actually more like 30 kts fast, and it's not a question of running out of runway. The issue is that, depending on weight you could be very close to or at maximum tire speed. Even if you're light enough where that isn't an issue you're still landing an airplane full of people in an abnormal landing configuration. If one of them so much as stubs their big toe on the way out the door, the Feds will probably be the first to ask why you didn't declare an emergency. I would roll the trucks without a second thought. It's just the prudent thing to do. It's what they are there for. I am about the furthest you can get from a puppy mill guy and I spent about 8 years flying all kinds of beat up freighters before I came to work here. Care to question my judgement?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Always declare and roll the trucks when landing with any abnormal. If you don't and something bad happens, the company, lawyers and press WILL destroy you. This litigous society of ours is full of armchair quarterbacks that think they know more than the guy in the left seat. Don't give them ammo to use against you.

Declaring and asking for the equipment is free. Do it!

 

[embdrvr]

First of all, I hope you're not a Captain. Secondly, I hope the SKW training department is sharp enough to weed you out when you go through upgrade.

Or...worse...arrogant, young, know it all F/O who constantly marvels at how much smarter he is than the Captains he flies with. If you're the latter, just remember that nobody will EVER fault you for erring on the side of caution in this business.

He's an FO and probably will stay that way for a while since a few folks in the training department know who NewWoman really is and read his posts. He'll have an "interesting" time going through upgrade. SkyW is an up or out airline.

Costs nothing to declare an emergency and you've got to fill out an irregularity report anyway. Last thing anyone needs to engage in is monday morning quarterbacking of the crew. They made it to the gate safely. That's what matters.

 

[Soverytired]

Except for the fact that we live in a sue happy society, and emotional trauma can pay big dividends in court.

True that, but what do I care? It's the company's job to explain why they can't maintain an aircraft well enough to operate in a normal fashion.

What's the FAA gonna do . . . say that you were TOO safe? Hardly.

But I could sure see you getting thrown in jail if you DON"T declare and emergency and brace 'em and then the nose collapses.

 

[FlySacto]

He's an FO and probably will stay that way for a while since a few folks in the training department know who NewWoman really is and read his posts. He'll have an "interesting" time going through upgrade. SkyW is an up or out airline.

Costs nothing to declare an emergency and you've got to fill out an irregularity report anyway. Last thing anyone needs to engage in is monday morning quarterbacking of the crew. They made it to the gate safely. That's what matters.

YGTBSM that this guy's for real! Good job guys. I just hope no one in back spilled their spit cups on their NASCAR jackets.

 

[Soverytired]

Too many of you people have never flown anything other than students and passengers. I know you had to have plenty of experience to get hired because your logbook read 253 hours.

Are you serious??? If landing 10 knots fast on a 10000' runway with flaps 30 is something you need to roll the trucks for then you need to take a leave of absence for a testicular reassignment. (No offense to you ladies with balls, just the pilot puppy mill types of all genders to which I am referring.) I am not saying that a flaps fail at 0 in Aspen is not a big deal, but come on!!! Are you a pilot, or are you a boxed in and scared little puppy!

Are YOU serious? Holy cripe! "Testicular reassignment"? "Scared little puppy"?

Bravery, balls, and ego have nothing to do with 121 passenger flying. Professionalism and safety do. I'm not exactly who you're trying to impress out there . . . believe me, other pilots don't give a crap what you do, except when you embarass the rest of us by pretending you're Chuck Yeager.

 

[bandit317]

I had a buddy who had a flaps 0 landing at Dulles. Plenty of runway, no biggy. Declared an emergency, braced the pax, ran the checklists, briefed the pax and FA, and followed the company procedures. Landed without incident. Filled out the paperwork. What he wasn't expecting, though, was the CVR to be pulled. Think about that the next time you cowboys are afraid to declare an emergency. He never had to explain himself, everything was by the book. I wonder what questions he would have been asked if he didn't declare an emergency and made the mx writeup after landing - flap failure during appraoch. Hmmm, how about "why wasn't an emergency declared?" being asked by the company, FAA, and NTSB. After all, "you had a write up of a flight control malfuntion."

 

[embdrvr]

Is bracing the pax recommended by your company?