Skywest & ASA management: READ!

[saviboy]

"Jerry: How about offering ASA people the same contract that you have your people working under? That would be a good start. Most of that is really all we are asking for."

I was looking on airline pilot pay.com and i realized that the ASA payscales look better than the ones at Skywest( only one crj payscale at skywest ). also the 401k plan looks better at skywest and possibility of profit sharing.
Can some body tell what makes the skywest contract better than ASA's.
just trying to understand what makes a regional airline contract good or bad.
thanks

 

["GO AROUND"]

I agree! 100%.

Give me a $2/hr. raise (+ profit sharing) and the better scheduling and work rules, show ALPA the door and let me keep my 2%.

I'm happy now. That would make me REALLY happy.

You're happy now? What more does the company have to do to make ASA an unhappy place to work?
Glad to hear you don't live in the same world of scheduling/company abuses the rest of us do. Granted it doesn't happen to every pilot every day but, one violation is too many. Your QOL must be just great. Let me know how that works out when the company gets the changes for the worse they want in our contract. Increased naps in a row, back side of the clock flying with no restrictions, no restrictions on ready reserve(line holder or not, no time limit), I could go on.
You guys think mngmnt has offered the SKW contract to us and the Neg comittee turned it down. They don't want us to even have the contract we have now! Managment wants no restrictions what so ever. They don't want us to have SKW's contract because it has too many restrictions and we have our union to enforce the restrictions. They want little or no restrictions on what they can do to us because of the incompetent's they have running the company on a daily basis already F it up as it is now.
Ask a SKW pilot what they have when the company violates their working agreement? According to friends at SKW, nothing. Cause they don't have a binding contract or anyone to enforce it.
What's most important is that Skywest airlines managment is 100 times better than ours. They know how to run an airline and keep their employees happy. They have a scheduling dept. that knows how to do their job and not F up the QOL.
It's time to snap back to reality and realize what kind of people run ASA and how poor a job they do for us. Skywest's contract, a $2 raise, profit sharing and no union without a change in managment is not an improvement.

Just my .02

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sounds like your beef is with the Delta MEC...not with ALPA National. And the Delta MEC is doing what you would be doing...protecting its flying as best as it can.

With your experience Fins you should know the role of National versus that of the MEC's on a local level.

-Neal

Neal: "The Pilots' Union" has to be a National effort and until recent times, it was. ALPA National began to fail when it allowed itself to be hijacked by a narrow political focus that is not representative of the membership as a whole. ALPA has a problem that is now built into the system, by which it absolutely disregards the input of members at the "non preferred" airlines.

The effect of this representational failure can be seen in the "race for the bottom." ALPA's mantra used to be that it would do its best to take pilot wages out the equation, that airlines would pay the same for pilots and provide similar work rules. Competition would not hinge on who paid pilots the least, or which airlines pushed their pilots harder. For many years this worked and the piloting profession was elevated by "jacking up the house, one corner at a time." Then ALPA changed when it was hijacked by various MECs (not only the Delta MEC) and each MEC used the union to suit its own narrow goals, ignoring, or worse, praying on the weaknesses of other members. Today it is every MEC for itself, BUT, some MEC's are much more equal than others.

ALPA National signs every contract. In the past ALPA has even refused to sign contracts at regional carriers (CC Air as an example) while transferring flying to its more preferred members (US Air pilots). If the union actually represented all of its membership, it would use this power National ratification to enforce ideas like "brand scope" and stopping alter ego competition within ALPA members within the brand. Better yet, the National union would set up a structure like the US Government has, with an Executive, Legislative and Judicial branch. Currently ALPA is the "Wild West" because there is no forum to settle disputes between MECs - the biggest and meanest simply wins every time.

I fault the Delta MEC to the extent that its failed policies have had a terrible effect on the well being of its furloughed pilots and for its cotribution to the destruction of Delta Airlines. I understand that the Delat MEC has done what it thinks is best to protect its most politically valuable members - my problem is with ALPA National allowing the Delta MEC to do whatever it wants, including predatory negotiations which harm other ALPA members. Further ALPA National has refused to hear grievances on these matters and has forced its members at ASA to resort to litigation to try to force the union to abide by its own Constitution and ByLaws.

As long as I am a pilot, employed in this profession, I will support ALPA. That also means trying to fix this union and correct its mistaken course. In my view the members and supporters of the RJDC are the true patriots of our union.

~~~^~~~

 

[ohplease!]

Glad to hear you don't live in the same world of scheduling/company abuses the rest of us do. Your QOL must be just great.

You guys think mngmnt has offered the SKW contract to us and the Neg comittee turned it down.

Ask a SKW pilot what they have when the company violates their working agreement? According to friends at SKW, nothing. Cause they don't have a binding contract or anyone to enforce it.
What's most important is that Skywest airlines managment is 100 times better than ours. They know how to run an airline and keep their employees happy. They have a scheduling dept. that knows how to do their job and not F up the QOL.

It's time to snap back to reality and realize what kind of people run ASA and how poor a job they do for us. Skywest's contract, a $2 raise, profit sharing and no union without a change in managment is not an improvement.

Just my .02

All or any part of weekends off I want, no holidays, avg. 90-95 hrs. pay/mo. and I can't seem to get extended even when I want to: 16 hrs. rest last night, 1 leg back to ATL today and on the bus at 8am with the rest of the day off (no shortage of folks pissing off the schedulers for them to mess with me.), heads up calls when they do need to make a change to my schedule, etc.....yeah, QOL is o.k. by me right now for the most part. There could always be better but, maybe you should think about the sh!t sandwich those guy's get dealt sometimes days like today for example. Don't believe it? Go over to the GO and sit and watch them for a while.

I don't have a clue what has been offered. "Our" union never comunicates ANYTHING! And yes, I have been to meetings and functions.

According to some, nobody is there to enforce the contract we have now either. Apparently pilots are being drawn and quartered on a daily basis. Who saves them? Oh yeah, ALPA...you can file a grievance. Maybe you'll hear something from it in a couple years...maybe not.

Skywest's deal sure looks like an improvement from where I sit.

thats my .02

 

["GO AROUND"]

All or any part of weekends off I want, no holidays, avg. 90-95 hrs. pay/mo. and I can't seem to get extended even when I want to: 16 hrs. rest last night, 1 leg back to ATL today and on the bus at 8am with the rest of the day off (no shortage of folks pissing off the schedulers for them to mess with me.), heads up calls when they do need to make a change to my schedule, etc.....yeah, QOL is o.k. by me right now for the most part. There could always be better but, maybe you should think about the sh!t sandwich those guy's get dealt sometimes days like today for example. Don't believe it? Go over to the GO and sit and watch them for a while.

I don't have a clue what has been offered. "Our" union never comunicates ANYTHING! And yes, I have been to meetings and functions.

According to some, nobody is there to enforce the contract we have now either. Apparently pilots are being drawn and quartered on a daily basis. Who saves them? Oh yeah, ALPA...you can file a grievance. Maybe you'll hear something from it in a couple years...maybe not.

Skywest's deal sure looks like an improvement from where I sit.

thats my .02

Yeah, right now it's ok for you. Shouldn't it be good for everyone? But you don't care about that. As long as you're OK. What are you gonna say when its not?

You must be senior to me. I'm not nieve enough to think things would be better without ALPA right now. A lot of things would have to change, trust and faith in mngmnt foremost, for me to think about it.
What is it you think you could have done better than our rep's? Then do it! Oh, I forgot you're happy with the way things are and you get all that the current and past representation have given you. But, the union has done nothing for you right?

You sound like someone that isn't a union member that bitches about paying dues but benifits from all the union has negotiated for the pilots? It's OK for you, but the union didn't do that for you right?
Who is this some that says the union is not there for us now? Probably another whiner that wants all the good and the bad is the unions fault.

I have sat over there on days like today and normal days. Watched them surf the net and listen to the phone ring rather than answer it. I've experienced shedulings incompetence more times than I can count. Like the time I sat in APF all day to DH back to ATL, only to see a crew deadhead in to fly the flt out with my capable crew in back. Then get bumped because of weight and have to limo to Ft meyers to get to ATL. Not to mention my FO and FA missing the round trip they were supposed to do when we got back. I called Sched. and Georgia didn't know how that happened but, "People make mistakes". So they started 3 fires when there souldn't have been any.

You sound like managment, it's not our fault it's the IROP days, wx and ATC's fault for our crap performance and sched's inability to deal with it. I don't hear any other airlines having the same problems our people have on similar days and they have better contracts than us.

I can email you all the info that I've gotten from the union. I'm very informed. I stay informed by going to the rep's not waiting for them to spoon feed it to me. But you're OK so why would you go asking about info.

As for grievances, don't blame our players, blame the game of how they have to play it. We don't get to make the rules, just have to live by them. Without representation you don't even get a grievance cause the company doesn't have to play the game.

Skywest's agreement looks good to me too, but how are you gonna get that? Gonna go to Brian's office and tell him that's what we will have? Lemme know how that works for ya? But you wouldn't even do that cause you're OK with things right now, right?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal: "The Pilots' Union" has to be a National effort and until recent times, it was. ALPA National began to fail when it allowed itself to be hijacked by a narrow political focus that is not representative of the membership as a whole. ALPA has a problem that is now built into the system, by which it absolutely disregards the input of members at the "non preferred" airlines.

The effect of this representational failure can be seen in the "race for the bottom." ALPA's mantra used to be that it would do its best to take pilot wages out the equation, that airlines would pay the same for pilots and provide similar work rules. Competition would not hinge on who paid pilots the least, or which airlines pushed their pilots harder. For many years this worked and the piloting profession was elevated by "jacking up the house, one corner at a time." Then ALPA changed when it was hijacked by various MECs (not only the Delta MEC) and each MEC used the union to suit its own narrow goals, ignoring, or worse, praying on the weaknesses of other members. Today it is every MEC for itself, BUT, some MEC's are much more equal than others.

ALPA National signs every contract. In the past ALPA has even refused to sign contracts at regional carriers (CC Air as an example) while transferring flying to its more preferred members (US Air pilots). If the union actually represented all of its membership, it would use this power National ratification to enforce ideas like "brand scope" and stopping alter ego competition within ALPA members within the brand. Better yet, the National union would set up a structure like the US Government has, with an Executive, Legislative and Judicial branch. Currently ALPA is the "Wild West" because there is no forum to settle disputes between MECs - the biggest and meanest simply wins every time.

I fault the Delta MEC to the extent that its failed policies have had a terrible effect on the well being of its furloughed pilots and for its cotribution to the destruction of Delta Airlines. I understand that the Delat MEC has done what it thinks is best to protect its most politically valuable members - my problem is with ALPA National allowing the Delta MEC to do whatever it wants, including predatory negotiations which harm other ALPA members. Further ALPA National has refused to hear grievances on these matters and has forced its members at ASA to resort to litigation to try to force the union to abide by its own Constitution and ByLaws.

As long as I am a pilot, employed in this profession, I will support ALPA. That also means trying to fix this union and correct its mistaken course. In my view the members and supporters of the RJDC are the true patriots of our union.

~~~^~~~

Well gee...then why on earth did the small jet MEC's get together in Herndon a few weeks ago to discuss how NOT to underbid each other? It wasn't for the good company that's for sure...maybe it was because our MEC's actually want to stop this race to the bottom and bidding on one another's jobs based on pilot pay alone?

Sorry Fins...I have been following (and involved in) this stuff for the past 6 years and I just don't buy it. The RJDC rhetoric is just that - rhetoric. It is full of yellow journalism and half-truths. We are vendors - not airlines. Until someone accepts that fact, they will be living in denial. We must fight our issues with the knowledge we are vendors and not airlines as that is the only way to make progress in this battle.

You'd be surprised what DW has said in public and in private about this very issue. He knows what is going on and does in fact acknowledge the problems at hand and is very interested in helping us fix them.

-Neal

 

[ohplease!]

pretty much right on. Damn you're a smart fella.

guess I am above you. hang around and pay your dues. you'll get there kiddo.

we're going to get about what Skywest has. nothing more and not much less. every day alpa puts that off, I'm losing more money.

 

["GO AROUND"]

pretty much right on. dang you're a smart fella.

guess I am above you. hang around and pay your dues. you'll get there kiddo.

we're going to get about what Skywest has. nothing more and not much less. every day alpa puts that off, I'm losing more money.

Thanks, I have a higher edumacation, ya old fart. 5 1/2 years at ASA and I've paid my dues elsewhere as well. Just junior enough to have to put up with the crap from schedules.

Get what Skywest has? How are we gonna get that? You gonna go over and demand it? I guess I'll say it again, managment does not want us to have anything close to Skywest.

I thought you were OK? Now you're losing money? What happened? Memory is the first thing to go in old age.

Oh I see, ALPA doesn't want you to have a better contract? I'll keep an eye out on the ramp for your brains cause you obviously lost what little you had.

 

[difete]

Dont mind if I ask, but... what are some of the benefits we (Skywest) pilots have that you guys at ASA want on your new contract?

 

[OCP]

Dont mind if I ask, but... what are some of the benefits we (Skywest) pilots have that you guys at ASA want on your new contract?

First and formost is the attitude that Skywest has toward their employees. But that may not be something we'll every have at ASA.
A list as I know some of them:

Duty rigs
No Junior man
time and a half for open time
Schedualing that doesn't try to violate work rules
performance based compensation

There are others, but I just got done with a 16hr day with 9:02hrs of flying and I'm tired.

 

[bayoubandit]

Live a day on reserve and you'll think differently.

 

["GO AROUND"]

I wouldn't wish reserve on anyone at ASA. Reserve at any other regional is better than ASA. Secheduling at any other regional is better than ASA's.

 

[Phony Marconi]

The reserve at ASA sucks.

I think all would agree that the least-senior pilots should get the fewest days off, have last pick at trips, and maintain the least control over their schedule.

However, this should be only with regard to OTHER PILOTS, and not with respect to the IMBECILES THAT RUN THE SCHEDULING DEPARTMENT.

If the system were fair, then nobody would gripe about "buffer", "low coverage", etc.....so long as the fairness were transparent and applicable to all.

But the Company has been using schedulers as henchmen to wage war on pilots, to "tighten the screws", as well as to cover up that they were negligent in hiring enough pilots to cover the flying.

How many flights were cancelled in the last year due to lack of available pilots? Is that info available? Would the DOT like what they saw?

 

[Crash Pad]

So you all haven't figured out the reserve system yet... All you have to do is scream at the schedulars every time they call. Swear, threaten lives, and always take your issues to the chief pilot... Oh I almost forgot no matter what happens ask to speak to a manager.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Nah, you just gotta call em and tell them that you want to fly when you don't and don't want to fly when you do and you will get it.

 

[blueridge71]

Reserve at ASA does suck. Here is how it was at ACA:

3:45 daily guarantee

They could not trade your days. Every day off was a GDO.

Ready reserve deducted 4:45 from guarantee and added it back above guarantee. That was a moneymaker.

When you completed an assignment, you were either released to rest, reassigned, or given a maximum three hour callback. No other options.

14 hour duty day. Up to to 15 for weather or mechanicals.

Fly me first or fly me last system.

Bucket system that was visible on a free up-to-the-minute website. No bribing schedulers with pizzas and no paying $7/month for something that isn't even real time. You could look in open time and look at the buckets and see what you should get. If they assigned something out of order, you could grieve it.

At Air Whisky, I think that they even have a long call reserve system for at least part of the month.

ASA's reserve system is closer to the one that our FAs had.

 

[ASADriver]

I wouldn't wish reserve on anyone at ASA. Reserve at any other regional is better than ASA. Secheduling at any other regional is better than ASA's.

Even worse than MESAs and Pinnacles? I don't think so. I have flown with some guys who bid reserve because they fly so little. If you live in town, it can be a pretty good gig. One guy I flew with only flew 150 hours last year on 700 reserve. Not bad if you ask me.

Could it be better, YES! Is the worst in the industry NO! Are the "chest-thumper" trouble makers using this to rile up the troops - YES!

I would rather sit reserve at ASA, then hold a line at MESA.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Folks, read Neal's posts because this is what ALPA is thinking. ALPA is currently negotiating to get small jet flying (jets less than 100 seats) back on the Delta property. In perspective, what ALPA is negotiating on the Delta property is a whole lot more important than the "no progress" on the ASA property. All need to understand that part of the reason ASA negotiations are going nowhere is because ASA/SkyWest negotiates for the left overs after ALPA negotiates for the Delta pilots.

Well gee...then why on earth did the small jet MEC's get together in Herndon a few weeks ago to discuss how NOT to underbid each other? It wasn't for the good company that's for sure...maybe it was because our MEC's actually want to stop this race to the bottom and bidding on one another's jobs based on pilot pay alone?
-Neal

Sorry but a few MEC's singing Kum By Yah doesn't cut it. ASA and Comair's MEC had been singing together for years, but Comair's MEC still could not resist the first chance they had for a little predatory bargaining. It takes strong National leadership (which ALPA lacks) and a refusal to sign a couple of concessionary agreements for the word to get out.

You'd be surprised what DW has said in public and in private about this very issue. He knows what is going on and does in fact acknowledge the problems at hand and is very interested in helping us fix them.

We must fight our issues with the knowledge we are vendors and not airlines as that is the only way to make progress in this battle. -Neal

Holy Crap!

Neal, so we are not professional pilots, or ALPA members, and the Constitution and ByLaws do not exist to protect our interests? If this is true, why are we in ALPA? How do we "make progress in this battle" if our union accepts defeat by admitting we are not "airline pilots?"

We are alter ego airlines within the same brand. ALPA has a duty to fight alter ego and one tool they have is their merger and fragmentation policy. But, people who think like you do think that we don't have the right to insist on fair representation and that we fail the test to be a "real airline pilot."

If I hear Duane Woerth ever say what you just wrote I will personally begin a decertification effort.

 

[reno]

I agree! 100%.

Give me a $2/hr. raise (+ profit sharing) and the better scheduling and work rules, show ALPA the door and let me keep my 2%.

I'm happy now. That would make me REALLY happy.

Why would you accept what SkyWest pilots have now. Last month SkyWest pilots overwhelmingly rejected a new TA proposed by management that included what we already have plus a 1.2% raise.

In addition to the 1.2%, we had the opportunity to permanently affirm flying 70 seater's as well as 90 seater's at our 50 seat pay. We also had the opportunity to approve that TA with NO EXPIRATION DATE!

SkyWest may get paid more than ASA now for the CRJ200 but we earn less on the 700. With our profit sharing it's probably a wash overall.

We rejected flying larger aircraft for 200 pay. Some argue that we have 70/90 seat rates in place already as a result of our last TA, now over 3 years old. We do not. We have expired rates. We rejected a contract reaffirming those rates on the 700/900. We rejected a TA with no expiration date.

I cannot tell you where we will end up. I can tell you that management is trying to whipsaw ASA against SkyWest pilots. Let's not race to the bottom!

 

[ohplease!]

Reserve at ASA does suck. Here is how it was at ACA:

3:45 daily guarantee

They could not trade your days. Every day off was a GDO.

Ready reserve deducted 4:45 from guarantee and added it back above guarantee. That was a moneymaker.

When you completed an assignment, you were either released to rest, reassigned, or given a maximum three hour callback. No other options.

14 hour duty day. Up to to 15 for weather or mechanicals.

Fly me first or fly me last system.

Bucket system that was visible on a free up-to-the-minute website. No bribing schedulers with pizzas and no paying $7/month for something that isn't even real time. You could look in open time and look at the buckets and see what you should get. If they assigned something out of order, you could grieve it.

At Air Whisky, I think that they even have a long call reserve system for at least part of the month.

ASA's reserve system is closer to the one that our FAs had.

and we all know how well that whole ACA thing has turned out...