Skywest & ASA management: READ!

[ohplease!]

Why would you accept what SkyWest pilots have now. Last month SkyWest pilots overwhelmingly rejected a new TA proposed by management that included what we already have plus a 1.2% raise.

In addition to the 1.2%, we had the opportunity to permanently affirm flying 70 seater's as well as 90 seater's at our 50 seat pay. We also had the opportunity to approve that TA with NO EXPIRATION DATE!

SkyWest may get paid more than ASA now for the CRJ200 but we earn less on the 700. With our profit sharing it's probably a wash overall.

We rejected flying larger aircraft for 200 pay. Some argue that we have 70/90 seat rates in place already as a result of our last TA, now over 3 years old. We do not. We have expired rates. We rejected a contract reaffirming those rates on the 700/900. We rejected a TA with no expiration date.

I cannot tell you where we will end up. I can tell you that management is trying to whipsaw ASA against SkyWest pilots. Let's not race to the bottom!

good points.

 

[AV8700]

Even worse than MESAs and Pinnacles? I don't think so. I have flown with some guys who bid reserve because they fly so little. If you live in town, it can be a pretty good gig. One guy I flew with only flew 150 hours last year on 700 reserve. Not bad if you ask me.

Could it be better, YES! Is the worst in the industry NO! Are the "chest-thumper" trouble makers using this to rile up the troops - YES!

I would rather sit reserve at ASA, then hold a line at MESA.

Gotta go with BS on the 700 reserve. It is much better this month maybe 30 to 40 hours. Earlier in the year you hit 150 in a month and a half.

 

[Dude]

Okay, I'll bite. I'm a new upgrade and so far reserve hasn't been too bad. First of all, I choose to speak to the schedulers like a professional and with respect. If the tone in the conversation heads south I mention it and refuse to speak with them further. I can accept almost anything as long as I'm treated fairly and with a little respect. Accusing the scheduling department of being henchmen or conspiring to ruin your life gives them way too much credit. They just try to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit.

This company has a long way to go, but it's a little early to throw the baby out with the dishwater. I too have issues with "our union", our mgmt, and our pilots, for that matter. Upgrades are sure to come but my frustration and worry will not fix the problems we have. If we vote for a strike, I will vote in the best interest of my family, my pilot group, and my company, in that order. I see a lot of complaining from people who are very lucky to flying such equipment and with the oversight to protect their inexperienced hineys. I'm afraid that times will never change for small jet pilots for one simple fact: this job is too easy to get and even easier to keep.

I would very much like to see improvements for all pilots. It's called a cycle and we are lucky to be surviving this one with little collateral damage. The last time I checked many pilots are facing concessions, furlough, displacement, underbidding, and outsourcing. We, at ASA are facing none of these. We are growing and our company is profitable. Mesaba, Comair, CCAir, Peidmont, Allegheny, etc. got hosed. It's not even close to being over for the industry. Delta, NWA, USAir, once again have fallen prey to management forced concessions. It's not just you, my friend that's not happy. You could be losing your house, your job, or your retirement that was worth a lot more than our piddly 401k. It's always easy to spot the inexperienced, they want it all right now and regardless of the ramifications. Relax and your precious improvements are coming, maybe not on your timetable but eventually. Sadly, the union does a poor job of informing the pilot group. They tell you what you need to know to be pi$$ed off. Our leadership at the local level is less than stellar and the Big cheese is about to retire while salivating to leave his mark or legacy. He is not the man I want fighting for me in these times. But he's who I got.

I am sorry to say it but if you don't like reserve, don't bid for a Captain position. Yes, the system should be better, but it was broken when you were lucky enough to bid for the seat you wanted. Try enjoying your day rather than being miserable. Life could be worse. By the way, I commute on reserve and knew the drill before I jumped into the deep end.

I guess I've preached enough. May the lashings begin. Please be gentle.

 

[Ganja60Heavy]

lash, lash, lash!

How dare you say life at the regionals is not miserable!

lash, lash, lash!

 

["GO AROUND"]

and we all know how well that whole ACA thing has turned out...

Yeah, and that was because of their reserve policy? Not even gonna get into that whole story here. Idiot!

Reserve may not be horrible right now, but just wait for the next staffing screw up like we had from april to sept and see how you feel on reserve then.
Fly twelve out of thirteen days a few times and fly 97.5 hours not credits in month and it doesn't matter if you commute or not you're never home.

I never blamed the schedulers for the staffing problem, but that doesn't change what they can do to us with our current sched. section and a managment that gives them that to deal with.
Don't get me started in the incompetance and inefficiency of our schedulers on normal days. A computer could do 75% of the jobs that schedulers do and much better.

 

[rjcap]

. A computer could do 75% of the jobs that schedulers do and much better.

That pretty much says it all. If the scheduling department was more automated allowing 24 hour a day trip pickups and swaps/drops without the oversight ( interference) of the schedulers you would be amazed at how the quality of life would improve.

I guess that costs the company too much ??

 

[Crash Pad]

DUDE People on this board need to b!tch... Don't rain on there parade. We all know that if Go-Around is really flying 95 a month with 6 on 1 off 6 on they would not be posting as early and often. Somehow I think they won't even time out this year despite the hammer of god that scheduling rains down on them.
Hey guys here is an idea... Need a new scheduling program that will allow the company to remove staff and save it money. The same program will make our lives amazing. Tell ALPA to buy it for the company. You pay 2% a year for a billboard. The purpose of a union is to improve the life of a worker and protect them... Since a contract looks a long way off and a strike looks ill advised why not use those dues to fix things immidiately and help the company.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Folks, read Neal's posts because this is what ALPA is thinking. ALPA is currently negotiating to get small jet flying (jets less than 100 seats) back on the Delta property. In perspective, what ALPA is negotiating on the Delta property is a whole lot more important than the "no progress" on the ASA property. All need to understand that part of the reason ASA negotiations are going nowhere is because ASA/SkyWest negotiates for the left overs after ALPA negotiates for the Delta pilots.

Is it "ALPA" doing the negotiating Fins or is it the Delta MEC? Let's be accurate and candid here. It the DELTA MEC and NOT "ALPA." And what is wrong with their MEC protecting their flying? Just like the ASA MEC doing what it can to get as much flying as possible?

Sorry but a few MEC's singing Kum By Yah doesn't cut it. ASA and Comair's MEC had been singing together for years, but Comair's MEC still could not resist the first chance they had for a little predatory bargaining. It takes strong National leadership (which ALPA lacks) and a refusal to sign a couple of concessionary agreements for the word to get out.

It is "kumbaya" but I won't hold that transgression against you.

Invoking some sort of "someone needs to fall on their sword" mentality is dangerous...very dangerous. Nothing is "black and white" and following a strategy of absolutes is irresponsible and naive. You seem to live in a world of absolutes however. You enjoy throwing sticks from the RJDC crowd but you have yet (from what I have seen the past few years) devised a strategy that contains solutions that would build consensus among all interest groups. We are still waiting...

Neal, so we are not professional pilots, or ALPA members, and the Constitution and ByLaws do not exist to protect our interests? If this is true, why are we in ALPA? How do we "make progress in this battle" if our union accepts defeat by admitting we are not "airline pilots?"

Quit the rhetoric Fins. We are professional pilots. We fly for ACMI carriers that are suppliers to the mainline carrier. That, in and of itself, has changed the nature of how we do business and how we bargain (unfortunately). If you can't grasp that very simple concept, I don't know what to tell you. But we do not work for a "guild" unfortunately...and I wish we did, but we don't. There is no set "day rate" or "hourly rate" amongst people in our Association or profession. Should there be? Of course. But that is highly unrealistic and well out of the bounds of reality.

We are alter ego airlines within the same brand. ALPA has a duty to fight alter ego and one tool they have is their merger and fragmentation policy. But, people who think like you do think that we don't have the right to insist on fair representation and that we fail the test to be a "real airline pilot."

You get all wrapped up in semantics and rhetoric and yellow journalism (just like the RJDC). Your emotional invectives are at least fun to read for entertainment but have little bearing in how this world we live in really works unfortunately. I have no problem (and actually enjoy) educated and rational debate but you can't get past the emotional issues that surround the RJDC mantra.

If I hear Duane Woerth ever say what you just wrote I will personally begin a decertification effort.

Knock yourself out. Twist words all you want. You are good at it.

-Neal

 

[blueridge71]

and we all know how well that whole ACA thing has turned out...

And, but for the grace of God and Jerry Atkin, ASA could be in the same boat as ACA and Comair.

Don't think that you are invincible. If it comes down to a strike, you might find out how quickly we can be replaced.

 

[~~~^~~~]

[/color]

Is it "ALPA" doing the negotiating Fins or is it the Delta MEC? Let's be accurate and candid here. It the DELTA MEC and NOT "ALPA." And what is wrong with their MEC protecting their flying? Just like the ASA MEC doing what it can to get as much flying as possible?

We fly for ACMI carriers that are suppliers to the mainline carrier. That, in and of itself, has changed the nature of how we do business and how we bargain (unfortunately).-Neal

Neal: It is ALPA negotiating. We only have one bargaining agent and that AGENT is ALPA.

ALPA acting as the sole agent for the ASA pilots denied our requests to negotiate with Delta to establish scope. Delta said they would negotiate, ALPA said no way in He11, you want me to post the link to the letters?

So I guess what is wrong is that the Delta MEC has control of our negotiating agent. The ASA pilots do not recieve the same level of representation, which you explain away as "we are ACMI carriers." Well, so are the Delta pilots. We are all in holding companies, but the difference is that the Delta pilots have the control of the union.

But to hear you tell it, that is OK because ASA pilots do not deserve better.

As far as solid ideas, how about the merger and fragmentation policy? How about single carrier petitions? How about fighting to end alter ego competition? How about National actually prohibiting predatory bargaining? - they used that justification for refusing to sign a contract that CC Air had ratified. Or how about setting up a Judicial branch in ALPA to hear grievances between members? Even you must admit there are no checks and balances in our union that will restrain a mainline MEC when it goes renegade.

ALPA will fail because ALPA fails to represent its members. Unions are supposed to bring employees together - somebody tell me how ALPA achieves that basic task!

 

[Tim47SIP]

Simple Spread Sheet!

Don't get me started in the incompetence and inefficiency of our schedulers on normal days. A computer could do 75% of the jobs that schedulers do and much better.


Heck! Just a simple excel spread sheet with short call and long call would take the guess work right out of it. I brought this in to willie 5 years ago and he told me it would be to difficult to implement??? I got nothing but excuses from that guy! Made me just want to uke: .

 

["GO AROUND"]

DUDE People on this board need to b!tch... Don't rain on there parade. We all know that if Go-Around is really flying 95 a month with 6 on 1 off 6 on they would not be posting as early and often. Somehow I think they won't even time out this year despite the hammer of god that scheduling rains down on them.
Hey guys here is an idea... Need a new scheduling program that will allow the company to remove staff and save it money. The same program will make our lives amazing. Tell ALPA to buy it for the company. You pay 2% a year for a billboard. The purpose of a union is to improve the life of a worker and protect them... Since a contract looks a long way off and a strike looks ill advised why not use those dues to fix things immidiately and help the company.

Never said that it was every month flying that way. I only started posting so much this month cause they havn't used me that much for a change. Doesn't change the fact that they did for a 4 month stretch, abuse my schedule such that only my 4 GDO's were'nt moved and the month of July I flew over 97 hours on a relief line. They had me scheduled for 97h and 42m until I called them on the max they can schedule you for in a month. Their first answer was that 97h and 42m was less than 97.50. Their fix for this after going round and round with them about the fact that 97h 42m in crew trac converted is more than 97.5 was to change the block time on my first round trip by 12 minutes to get around the contract restriction.

I could rant for days about scheduling, their inefficiencies and incompetence.
A new sched. program would pay for itself with improved efficiency and getting rid of the needless schedulers the computer program that would replace.

 

[OCP]

Never said that it was every month flying that way. I only started posting so much this month cause they havn't used me that much for a change. Doesn't change the fact that they did for a 4 month stretch, abuse my schedule such that only my 4 GDO's were'nt moved and the month of July I flew over 97 hours on a relief line. They had me scheduled for 97h and 42m until I called them on the max they can schedule you for in a month. Their first answer was that 97h and 42m was less than 97.50. Their fix for this after going round and round with them about the fact that 97h 42m in crew trac converted is more than 97.5 was to change the block time on my first round trip by 12 minutes to get around the contract restriction.

I could rant for days about scheduling, their inefficiencies and incompetence.
A new sched. program would pay for itself with improved efficiency and getting rid of the needless schedulers the computer program that would replace.

Talk to a Skywest person about their reserve system. 11 days off, can't be moved, they can see what the schedulers see. Choice of first call, last call. Seniority reserve.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Talk to most any carrier regional or major about their reserve system and it's better than ours. I want whats best from all the contracts out there. That's what our CNC did when they came up with all their proposals. Researched all the contracts out there and took the best from them to get the best QOL possible.

 

[Bluto]

Talk to a Skywest person about their reserve system. 11 days off, can't be moved, they can see what the schedulers see. Choice of first call, last call. Seniority reserve.

You're mostly right, except for the ability to see what the schedulers can see. The only thing you can see is your relative position in the bucket and if they call you while you're in the bottom of it, they just tell you it hasn't updated yet. And the seniority system is only based on people in your specific "bucket" so you can still get shafted. It's frustrating. If you make friends with the right scheduler, though, you can have a pretty decent life on reserve.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal: It is ALPA negotiating. We only have one bargaining agent and that AGENT is ALPA.

Semantics. Each MEC negotiates for themselves using the resources that National provides. You are projecting your own frustration about reality in the wrong direction.

ALPA acting as the sole agent for the ASA pilots denied our requests to negotiate with Delta to establish scope. Delta said they would negotiate, ALPA said no way in He11, you want me to post the link to the letters?

Yes, please post proof that Delta management would physically pass paper with you guys at ASA.

So I guess what is wrong is that the Delta MEC has control of our negotiating agent.

I don't think that is the case at all. Again, projection of your internal frustration in the wrong direction.

The ASA pilots do not recieve the same level of representation, which you explain away as "we are ACMI carriers." Well, so are the Delta pilots. We are all in holding companies, but the difference is that the Delta pilots have the control of the union.

Wrong. I did not say that so please do not put words in my mouth. I was explaining the difference between Delta Air Lines (which owns the brand that is on the tail) and ASA which is a vendor/supplier to Delta Air Lines. Knowing what I know about your negotiating process, you have not received "less representation" than your Delta counterparts. Have you been denied access to an R&I professional? To E&FA? To Legal? To Communications? Delta pilots aren't in control of the union. Delta pilots do, however, have ownership over a certain percentage of DL's flying because they bargained for it over the past 50+ years. You know it and I know it...you just refuse to admit and acknowledge it.

But to hear you tell it, that is OK because ASA pilots do not deserve better.

That is garbage - plain and simple.

As far as solid ideas, how about the merger and fragmentation policy? How about single carrier petitions? How about fighting to end alter ego competition? How about National actually prohibiting predatory bargaining? - they used that justification for refusing to sign a contract that CC Air had ratified. Or how about setting up a Judicial branch in ALPA to hear grievances between members? Even you must admit there are no checks and balances in our union that will restrain a mainline MEC when it goes renegade.

There is nothing that prevents single carrier petitions. Why aren't you guys going for that with Skywest? Does your situation (or did I should say) show cause for implementing the Merger policy? Can you show a clear case for it? Because without the other pilot group being interested, you'd probably have the burden of proof on you guys...and it would be a pretty high bar to reach as far as cases go.

ALPA will fail because ALPA fails to represent its members. Unions are supposed to bring employees together - somebody tell me how ALPA achieves that basic task!

Would we be having this discussion if none of the concessions ever occurred, oil was still at $25/bbl, everyone was upgrading in a year, and the majors were all hiring 100+/month? Probably not. When times are bad, people need to blame someone for their misfortune (or at least the perception of it). ALPA isn't a perfect organization but it is only as strong as its members. This is illustrated by looking at various MEC's - it is pretty obvious which ones are the dysfunction ones and which ones are the strong ones.

-Neal