Skywest & ASA management: READ!

[~~~^~~~]

Nothing like good old false rhetoric based on no fact whatsoever. ALPA as a national organization has taken far more interest in us "regionals" than you realize. For starters, we at XJT have received outstanding support from national, including getting the Director of Representation AS WELL as the Assistant Director of Representation working directly with us on our contract. We consistently have had the Manager and Director of Communications at our MEC meetings helping us in various ways. Our R&I support is top notch and always available. I could go on...but it would probably fall on deaf ears...because it is always much easier to blame the big bad organization carte blanche without specifically addressing any real issues.

-Neal

Yeah, ALPA has taken interest in us all right. While I have been here we were scoped from 105 seats, down to 50 with limited 70 seaters grandfathered in. Our legitimate policy implementation date request to merge our operationally integrated airlines was railroaded by another MEC, ALPA removed the definition of "operational integration" from its Constitution and set off a torrent of alter ego competition that has driven market wages down, ALPA jerrymandered the representational structure to keep our representative votes off the Executive Board and our Union President has welcomed scabs back into the union without a penny of back dues.

ALPA has taken so much interest in us that Duane Woerth walks right past our Pilot lounge on his way to talk to the Delta pilots. He did not even do the 10 second photo op. This is how interested ALPA National is in our plight, so much that they can't be bothered to stick their head in the door and say hello.

ALPA's only interest in us right now is negotiating flying that they are afraid we might get to their "preferred" pilots at other airlines. ALPA has proposed an agreement to Delta forgoing certain furloughee benefits in exchange for an agreement to operate RJ's smaller than 90 seats at mainline and the proposed 100 seat rates are less than our current 70 seat rates.

If ALPA can not get the flying to mainline, they will settle for non-ALPA carriers so ASA pilots can't use their numbers to form a voting block that might restore some representation to the "non preferred pilots." If you notice the only next generation airplanes being put into Delta service are flown by pilots who are not ALPA members.

ALPA is a great organization which has effectively been hijacked by a few MEC's who have used the union as a tool to disenfranchise pilots that are not at the "preferred" airlines. Candidly, if I saw I way to keep our local union structure while dumping the national union, I would do it in a second.

We need a strong National union to bring pilots together and stop alter ego competition. Unfortunately ALPA isn't it. Perhaps it is the best of the worst case scenarios, but I'm wondering if Teamsters would not do a better job. At least their President isn't out eating cake with scabs while welcoming them back to ALPA.

I'm definately in the "I would strike, as long as it takes" category. But, it is because management has offered nothing, even non-economic requests, that would improve our quality of life. If we were given Skywest's deal (without the loss of our 70 rates) & a merger I'd sign on. I think the ball is in management's Court and they could chop ALPA off at the kneecaps by showing a little good faith. If I had the choice of picketing Herndon, VA, or Virginia Ave., it would be a tough call. Fortunately a lot of ALPA's bad apples are nearing 60 and hopefully they will take their huge ALPA pay and go far, far, away.

~~~^~~~

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Yeah, ALPA has taken interest in us all right. While I have been here we were scoped from 105 seats, down to 50 with limited 70 seaters grandfathered in. Our legitimate policy implementation date request to merge our operationally integrated airlines was railroaded by another MEC, ALPA removed the definition of "operational integration" from its Constitution and set off a torrent of alter ego competition that has driven market wages down, ALPA jerrymandered the representational structure to keep our representative votes off the Executive Board and our Union President has welcomed scabs back into the union without a penny of back dues.

ALPA has taken so much interest in us that Duane Woerth walks right past our Pilot lounge on his way to talk to the Delta pilots. He did not even do the 10 second photo op. This is how interested ALPA National is in our plight, so much that they can't be bothered to stick their head in the door and say hello.

ALPA's only interest in us right now is negotiating flying that they are afraid we might get to their "preferred" pilots at other airlines. ALPA has proposed an agreement to Delta forgoing certain furloughee benefits in exchange for an agreement to operate RJ's smaller than 90 seats at mainline and the proposed 100 seat rates are less than our current 70 seat rates.

If ALPA can not get the flying to mainline, they will settle for non-ALPA carriers so ASA pilots can't use their numbers to form a voting block that might restore some representation to the "non preferred pilots." If you notice the only next generation airplanes being put into Delta service are flown by pilots who are not ALPA members.

ALPA is a great organization which has effectively been hijacked by a few MEC's who have used the union as a tool to disenfranchise pilots that are not at the "preferred" airlines. Candidly, if I saw I way to keep our local union structure while dumping the national union, I would do it in a second.

We need a strong National union to bring pilots together and stop alter ego competition. Unfortunately ALPA isn't it. Perhaps it is the best of the worst case scenarios, but I'm wondering if Teamsters would not do a better job. At least their President isn't out eating cake with scabs while welcoming them back to ALPA.

I'm definately in the "I would strike, as long as it takes" category. But, it is because management has offered nothing, even non-economic requests, that would improve our quality of life. If we were given Skywest's deal (without the loss of our 70 rates) & a merger I'd sign on. I think the ball is in management's Court and they could chop ALPA off at the kneecaps by showing a little good faith. If I had the choice of picketing Herndon, VA, or Virginia Ave., it would be a tough call. Fortunately a lot of ALPA's bad apples are nearing 60 and hopefully they will take their huge ALPA pay and go far, far, away.

~~~^~~~

Sounds like your beef is with the Delta MEC...not with ALPA National. And the Delta MEC is doing what you would be doing...protecting its flying as best as it can.

With your experience Fins you should know the role of National versus that of the MEC's on a local level.

-Neal

 

[uncle_rico]

I agree! 100%.

Give me a $2/hr. raise (+ profit sharing) and the better scheduling and work rules, show ALPA the door and let me keep my 2%.

I'm happy now. That would make me REALLY happy.

i couldn't agree more....

 

[uncle_rico]

Yeah, ALPA has taken interest in us all right. While I have been here we were scoped from 105 seats, down to 50 with limited 70 seaters grandfathered in. Our legitimate policy implementation date request to merge our operationally integrated airlines was railroaded by another MEC, ALPA removed the definition of "operational integration" from its Constitution and set off a torrent of alter ego competition that has driven market wages down, ALPA jerrymandered the representational structure to keep our representative votes off the Executive Board and our Union President has welcomed scabs back into the union without a penny of back dues.

ALPA has taken so much interest in us that Duane Woerth walks right past our Pilot lounge on his way to talk to the Delta pilots. He did not even do the 10 second photo op. This is how interested ALPA National is in our plight, so much that they can't be bothered to stick their head in the door and say hello.

ALPA's only interest in us right now is negotiating flying that they are afraid we might get to their "preferred" pilots at other airlines. ALPA has proposed an agreement to Delta forgoing certain furloughee benefits in exchange for an agreement to operate RJ's smaller than 90 seats at mainline and the proposed 100 seat rates are less than our current 70 seat rates.

If ALPA can not get the flying to mainline, they will settle for non-ALPA carriers so ASA pilots can't use their numbers to form a voting block that might restore some representation to the "non preferred pilots." If you notice the only next generation airplanes being put into Delta service are flown by pilots who are not ALPA members.

ALPA is a great organization which has effectively been hijacked by a few MEC's who have used the union as a tool to disenfranchise pilots that are not at the "preferred" airlines. Candidly, if I saw I way to keep our local union structure while dumping the national union, I would do it in a second.

We need a strong National union to bring pilots together and stop alter ego competition. Unfortunately ALPA isn't it. Perhaps it is the best of the worst case scenarios, but I'm wondering if Teamsters would not do a better job. At least their President isn't out eating cake with scabs while welcoming them back to ALPA.

I'm definately in the "I would strike, as long as it takes" category. But, it is because management has offered nothing, even non-economic requests, that would improve our quality of life. If we were given Skywest's deal (without the loss of our 70 rates) & a merger I'd sign on. I think the ball is in management's Court and they could chop ALPA off at the kneecaps by showing a little good faith. If I had the choice of picketing Herndon, VA, or Virginia Ave., it would be a tough call. Fortunately a lot of ALPA's bad apples are nearing 60 and hopefully they will take their huge ALPA pay and go far, far, away.

~~~^~~~

very well said. the last time I posted my same feelings on this topic I was branded "managment" because I start sentences with lower case and I am a terrible guy to fly with because I actually want to comply with company directives.

 

[av8er2]

You would think that SW is smart enough to be coming up with a plan so everyone is happy. All the SW emp. seem to be happy which makes them profitable and I would think they would continue that.

As for Brian L he is part of that same group that got us here and I have no confidence in him at all. He has no idea about this ONE VISION.

I think he was in charge of the ramp when it was soooooo BAD and the ramp did not improve until they got the new guy. If this is true, he should not be running this company.

 

[saviboy]

"Jerry: How about offering ASA people the same contract that you have your people working under? That would be a good start. Most of that is really all we are asking for."

I was looking on airline pilot pay.com and i realized that the ASA payscales look better than the ones at Skywest( only one crj payscale at skywest ). also the 401k plan looks better at skywest and possibility of profit sharing.
Can some body tell what makes the skywest contract better than ASA's.
just trying to understand what makes a regional airline contract good or bad.
thanks

 

["GO AROUND"]

I agree! 100%.

Give me a $2/hr. raise (+ profit sharing) and the better scheduling and work rules, show ALPA the door and let me keep my 2%.

I'm happy now. That would make me REALLY happy.

You're happy now? What more does the company have to do to make ASA an unhappy place to work?
Glad to hear you don't live in the same world of scheduling/company abuses the rest of us do. Granted it doesn't happen to every pilot every day but, one violation is too many. Your QOL must be just great. Let me know how that works out when the company gets the changes for the worse they want in our contract. Increased naps in a row, back side of the clock flying with no restrictions, no restrictions on ready reserve(line holder or not, no time limit), I could go on.
You guys think mngmnt has offered the SKW contract to us and the Neg comittee turned it down. They don't want us to even have the contract we have now! Managment wants no restrictions what so ever. They don't want us to have SKW's contract because it has too many restrictions and we have our union to enforce the restrictions. They want little or no restrictions on what they can do to us because of the incompetent's they have running the company on a daily basis already F it up as it is now.
Ask a SKW pilot what they have when the company violates their working agreement? According to friends at SKW, nothing. Cause they don't have a binding contract or anyone to enforce it.
What's most important is that Skywest airlines managment is 100 times better than ours. They know how to run an airline and keep their employees happy. They have a scheduling dept. that knows how to do their job and not F up the QOL.
It's time to snap back to reality and realize what kind of people run ASA and how poor a job they do for us. Skywest's contract, a $2 raise, profit sharing and no union without a change in managment is not an improvement.

Just my .02

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sounds like your beef is with the Delta MEC...not with ALPA National. And the Delta MEC is doing what you would be doing...protecting its flying as best as it can.

With your experience Fins you should know the role of National versus that of the MEC's on a local level.

-Neal

Neal: "The Pilots' Union" has to be a National effort and until recent times, it was. ALPA National began to fail when it allowed itself to be hijacked by a narrow political focus that is not representative of the membership as a whole. ALPA has a problem that is now built into the system, by which it absolutely disregards the input of members at the "non preferred" airlines.

The effect of this representational failure can be seen in the "race for the bottom." ALPA's mantra used to be that it would do its best to take pilot wages out the equation, that airlines would pay the same for pilots and provide similar work rules. Competition would not hinge on who paid pilots the least, or which airlines pushed their pilots harder. For many years this worked and the piloting profession was elevated by "jacking up the house, one corner at a time." Then ALPA changed when it was hijacked by various MECs (not only the Delta MEC) and each MEC used the union to suit its own narrow goals, ignoring, or worse, praying on the weaknesses of other members. Today it is every MEC for itself, BUT, some MEC's are much more equal than others.

ALPA National signs every contract. In the past ALPA has even refused to sign contracts at regional carriers (CC Air as an example) while transferring flying to its more preferred members (US Air pilots). If the union actually represented all of its membership, it would use this power National ratification to enforce ideas like "brand scope" and stopping alter ego competition within ALPA members within the brand. Better yet, the National union would set up a structure like the US Government has, with an Executive, Legislative and Judicial branch. Currently ALPA is the "Wild West" because there is no forum to settle disputes between MECs - the biggest and meanest simply wins every time.

I fault the Delta MEC to the extent that its failed policies have had a terrible effect on the well being of its furloughed pilots and for its cotribution to the destruction of Delta Airlines. I understand that the Delat MEC has done what it thinks is best to protect its most politically valuable members - my problem is with ALPA National allowing the Delta MEC to do whatever it wants, including predatory negotiations which harm other ALPA members. Further ALPA National has refused to hear grievances on these matters and has forced its members at ASA to resort to litigation to try to force the union to abide by its own Constitution and ByLaws.

As long as I am a pilot, employed in this profession, I will support ALPA. That also means trying to fix this union and correct its mistaken course. In my view the members and supporters of the RJDC are the true patriots of our union.

~~~^~~~

 

[ohplease!]

Glad to hear you don't live in the same world of scheduling/company abuses the rest of us do. Your QOL must be just great.

You guys think mngmnt has offered the SKW contract to us and the Neg comittee turned it down.

Ask a SKW pilot what they have when the company violates their working agreement? According to friends at SKW, nothing. Cause they don't have a binding contract or anyone to enforce it.
What's most important is that Skywest airlines managment is 100 times better than ours. They know how to run an airline and keep their employees happy. They have a scheduling dept. that knows how to do their job and not F up the QOL.

It's time to snap back to reality and realize what kind of people run ASA and how poor a job they do for us. Skywest's contract, a $2 raise, profit sharing and no union without a change in managment is not an improvement.

Just my .02

All or any part of weekends off I want, no holidays, avg. 90-95 hrs. pay/mo. and I can't seem to get extended even when I want to: 16 hrs. rest last night, 1 leg back to ATL today and on the bus at 8am with the rest of the day off (no shortage of folks pissing off the schedulers for them to mess with me.), heads up calls when they do need to make a change to my schedule, etc.....yeah, QOL is o.k. by me right now for the most part. There could always be better but, maybe you should think about the sh!t sandwich those guy's get dealt sometimes days like today for example. Don't believe it? Go over to the GO and sit and watch them for a while.

I don't have a clue what has been offered. "Our" union never comunicates ANYTHING! And yes, I have been to meetings and functions.

According to some, nobody is there to enforce the contract we have now either. Apparently pilots are being drawn and quartered on a daily basis. Who saves them? Oh yeah, ALPA...you can file a grievance. Maybe you'll hear something from it in a couple years...maybe not.

Skywest's deal sure looks like an improvement from where I sit.

thats my .02

 

["GO AROUND"]

All or any part of weekends off I want, no holidays, avg. 90-95 hrs. pay/mo. and I can't seem to get extended even when I want to: 16 hrs. rest last night, 1 leg back to ATL today and on the bus at 8am with the rest of the day off (no shortage of folks pissing off the schedulers for them to mess with me.), heads up calls when they do need to make a change to my schedule, etc.....yeah, QOL is o.k. by me right now for the most part. There could always be better but, maybe you should think about the sh!t sandwich those guy's get dealt sometimes days like today for example. Don't believe it? Go over to the GO and sit and watch them for a while.

I don't have a clue what has been offered. "Our" union never comunicates ANYTHING! And yes, I have been to meetings and functions.

According to some, nobody is there to enforce the contract we have now either. Apparently pilots are being drawn and quartered on a daily basis. Who saves them? Oh yeah, ALPA...you can file a grievance. Maybe you'll hear something from it in a couple years...maybe not.

Skywest's deal sure looks like an improvement from where I sit.

thats my .02

Yeah, right now it's ok for you. Shouldn't it be good for everyone? But you don't care about that. As long as you're OK. What are you gonna say when its not?

You must be senior to me. I'm not nieve enough to think things would be better without ALPA right now. A lot of things would have to change, trust and faith in mngmnt foremost, for me to think about it.
What is it you think you could have done better than our rep's? Then do it! Oh, I forgot you're happy with the way things are and you get all that the current and past representation have given you. But, the union has done nothing for you right?

You sound like someone that isn't a union member that bitches about paying dues but benifits from all the union has negotiated for the pilots? It's OK for you, but the union didn't do that for you right?
Who is this some that says the union is not there for us now? Probably another whiner that wants all the good and the bad is the unions fault.

I have sat over there on days like today and normal days. Watched them surf the net and listen to the phone ring rather than answer it. I've experienced shedulings incompetence more times than I can count. Like the time I sat in APF all day to DH back to ATL, only to see a crew deadhead in to fly the flt out with my capable crew in back. Then get bumped because of weight and have to limo to Ft meyers to get to ATL. Not to mention my FO and FA missing the round trip they were supposed to do when we got back. I called Sched. and Georgia didn't know how that happened but, "People make mistakes". So they started 3 fires when there souldn't have been any.

You sound like managment, it's not our fault it's the IROP days, wx and ATC's fault for our crap performance and sched's inability to deal with it. I don't hear any other airlines having the same problems our people have on similar days and they have better contracts than us.

I can email you all the info that I've gotten from the union. I'm very informed. I stay informed by going to the rep's not waiting for them to spoon feed it to me. But you're OK so why would you go asking about info.

As for grievances, don't blame our players, blame the game of how they have to play it. We don't get to make the rules, just have to live by them. Without representation you don't even get a grievance cause the company doesn't have to play the game.

Skywest's agreement looks good to me too, but how are you gonna get that? Gonna go to Brian's office and tell him that's what we will have? Lemme know how that works for ya? But you wouldn't even do that cause you're OK with things right now, right?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal: "The Pilots' Union" has to be a National effort and until recent times, it was. ALPA National began to fail when it allowed itself to be hijacked by a narrow political focus that is not representative of the membership as a whole. ALPA has a problem that is now built into the system, by which it absolutely disregards the input of members at the "non preferred" airlines.

The effect of this representational failure can be seen in the "race for the bottom." ALPA's mantra used to be that it would do its best to take pilot wages out the equation, that airlines would pay the same for pilots and provide similar work rules. Competition would not hinge on who paid pilots the least, or which airlines pushed their pilots harder. For many years this worked and the piloting profession was elevated by "jacking up the house, one corner at a time." Then ALPA changed when it was hijacked by various MECs (not only the Delta MEC) and each MEC used the union to suit its own narrow goals, ignoring, or worse, praying on the weaknesses of other members. Today it is every MEC for itself, BUT, some MEC's are much more equal than others.

ALPA National signs every contract. In the past ALPA has even refused to sign contracts at regional carriers (CC Air as an example) while transferring flying to its more preferred members (US Air pilots). If the union actually represented all of its membership, it would use this power National ratification to enforce ideas like "brand scope" and stopping alter ego competition within ALPA members within the brand. Better yet, the National union would set up a structure like the US Government has, with an Executive, Legislative and Judicial branch. Currently ALPA is the "Wild West" because there is no forum to settle disputes between MECs - the biggest and meanest simply wins every time.

I fault the Delta MEC to the extent that its failed policies have had a terrible effect on the well being of its furloughed pilots and for its cotribution to the destruction of Delta Airlines. I understand that the Delat MEC has done what it thinks is best to protect its most politically valuable members - my problem is with ALPA National allowing the Delta MEC to do whatever it wants, including predatory negotiations which harm other ALPA members. Further ALPA National has refused to hear grievances on these matters and has forced its members at ASA to resort to litigation to try to force the union to abide by its own Constitution and ByLaws.

As long as I am a pilot, employed in this profession, I will support ALPA. That also means trying to fix this union and correct its mistaken course. In my view the members and supporters of the RJDC are the true patriots of our union.

~~~^~~~

Well gee...then why on earth did the small jet MEC's get together in Herndon a few weeks ago to discuss how NOT to underbid each other? It wasn't for the good company that's for sure...maybe it was because our MEC's actually want to stop this race to the bottom and bidding on one another's jobs based on pilot pay alone?

Sorry Fins...I have been following (and involved in) this stuff for the past 6 years and I just don't buy it. The RJDC rhetoric is just that - rhetoric. It is full of yellow journalism and half-truths. We are vendors - not airlines. Until someone accepts that fact, they will be living in denial. We must fight our issues with the knowledge we are vendors and not airlines as that is the only way to make progress in this battle.

You'd be surprised what DW has said in public and in private about this very issue. He knows what is going on and does in fact acknowledge the problems at hand and is very interested in helping us fix them.

-Neal

 

[ohplease!]

pretty much right on. Damn you're a smart fella.

guess I am above you. hang around and pay your dues. you'll get there kiddo.

we're going to get about what Skywest has. nothing more and not much less. every day alpa puts that off, I'm losing more money.

 

["GO AROUND"]

pretty much right on. dang you're a smart fella.

guess I am above you. hang around and pay your dues. you'll get there kiddo.

we're going to get about what Skywest has. nothing more and not much less. every day alpa puts that off, I'm losing more money.

Thanks, I have a higher edumacation, ya old fart. 5 1/2 years at ASA and I've paid my dues elsewhere as well. Just junior enough to have to put up with the crap from schedules.

Get what Skywest has? How are we gonna get that? You gonna go over and demand it? I guess I'll say it again, managment does not want us to have anything close to Skywest.

I thought you were OK? Now you're losing money? What happened? Memory is the first thing to go in old age.

Oh I see, ALPA doesn't want you to have a better contract? I'll keep an eye out on the ramp for your brains cause you obviously lost what little you had.

 

[difete]

Dont mind if I ask, but... what are some of the benefits we (Skywest) pilots have that you guys at ASA want on your new contract?

 

[OCP]

Dont mind if I ask, but... what are some of the benefits we (Skywest) pilots have that you guys at ASA want on your new contract?

First and formost is the attitude that Skywest has toward their employees. But that may not be something we'll every have at ASA.
A list as I know some of them:

Duty rigs
No Junior man
time and a half for open time
Schedualing that doesn't try to violate work rules
performance based compensation

There are others, but I just got done with a 16hr day with 9:02hrs of flying and I'm tired.