SkyWest ALPA

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA talks about brand scope, then pursues an agenda that further divides the "brand" so flying can be given to the preferred pilots. Examples abound, most recently at Northwest where NAir, NStar, NWA70 and other plans have been either promoted, or negotiated, by ALPA to transfer flying to Northwest Pilots at yet another alter ego airline within the brand. Examples also abound at US Air where several alter ego competitors within the brand were created to provide jets for jobs tickets for the preferred pilots. ALPA's actions speak louder than their words.

The next forward thinking idea is actually a return to basics, where ALPA represents their pilots equally and where a strong national organization exists to keep predatory MEC's from doing just this sort of negotiating to benefit their pilots, while the rest of the profession suffers. Of course the sum effect of all of ALPA's representational failure is the "race for the bottom" that we see everywhere.

The RJDC is the only effort being made to restore the union. Others within ALPA might have the right idea, like brand scope, but as long as the real power is held by just one, or two MEC's, those MEC's will continue to do whatever they want (without restraint) and the rest of the profession can go to he11 as far as "ALPA" is concerned.

Bottom line is that unions are supposed to bring employees together - ALPA doesn't do that these days.

Fins,

your message is loud and clear and heard often.....

I say to you, that the issue has been raised...but HOW do you propose to get back to the basics... In addition, what exactly is the RJDC doing besides sueing.

ALPA's representational "race to the bottom" is the same structure that brought us UAL2000 and DAL2001. Seemed to work fine then. If you want to change the structure around, then all will be complaining when the boom and growth return, that thier pay is limited by the national structure. If the UAL guys return to super profitiablity why should thier negotiations be limited by another company that is doing poorly?

The problem is management runs thier agenda and all expect ALPA to counter free market forces (even Greenspan can't do that!) and reverse upper management decisions....

Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ok I think everyone on the regional forum with a union suffers from 2,3,4. 10 posts ago an ASA guy was saying he was reprimanded for a safety issue... that would be 6. So it looks like ALPA doesn't address any of these issues better than SKYW.
Hey SKYW go union. I have noticed here on the Flight Info there are few Skywest pilots and even fewer complaints. I bet that number skyrockets once you get a union.

Well, the next level of understanding is unions are resources not services.

As far as regional pilots, when you got SJS or you think you are going to a better place ones current environement doesn't seem matter...

At the regional level I've seen ALPA keep management in check.

Keep in mind, SKYW management knows where the line is.... and they are constantly checking that against the rest of the unionized industry... IOW SKYW needs unions to keep unions at bay.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lifted from a thread posted by another Delta pilot is the following recap of what ALPA, with the full support of Duane Woerth wants at NWA.

Post-Rejection Objectives
· Obtain Credit for the $170M/Year in Revenue-Enhancing Concessions
o Includes Credit for SJet Operation and Other Non-Credited
Concessions
· Eliminate and/or Improve the Most Objectionable Sections of
Rejected TA
o Scope
§ Improve Larger SJ (77-110-seat) to Smaller SJ (51-76-seat) Ratio
§ Establish an Effective Mainline Floor to Prevent Erosion of
Flying
§ Transfer Pilot Longevity Credit with Flow Up/Flow Down to SJet
o Pay

Note the following:

• Small Jet flying is considered a concession to be offset with other items negotiated for the mainline pilots. Applied to us, a penalty should be negotiated against the mainline carrier for every hour flown by a Skywest pilot.
• ALPA wants the creation of yet another alter ego, now called SJet
• At SJet Northwest pilots have super senioirty over the other pilots hired.
• ALPA wants to limit smaller jet flying

Also note that if you are a small jet pilot who believes that you should have a voice to negotiate your pay and working conditions with your employer the nice guys at Delta like our friend 737Pylt will call you a "scab," hope that they could some how sue you, or in other ways try to harm you for your work trying to build a union that brings employees together to bargain collectively with their employers.

Unfortunately folks like 737Pylt have absolute control within ALPA. There is no process in place to restrain them. If you become ALPA, you will have the pleasure of being represented according to 737Pylt's whims.

One wonders how the Mesaba guys feel about their friends at Northwest who have voted against providing strike benefits to Mesaba pilots, while pushing for an alter ego airline to perform the flying which was flown by Mesaba.

The real reason why 737Pylt and General Lee hate the RJDC with such passion is that the RJDC has been effective in restraining much of the predatory bargaining that has gone on at US Air and Northwest.

The Skywest pilots have been unwitting beneficiaries, but with the ASA purchase you now are getting an introduction to playing in the sandbox with the 900 pound gorilla going by the handle of "DALPA."

 

[Magneto]

I will say this. I signed up for information from ALPA about 6 months ago. I am seriously considering taking my name off that list. I don't believe ALPA is the answer for us here at SkyWest. And I think the organizing commitee (sp?) will have a rude awakening when it comes time to vote. I also know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I am still not convinced ALPA is worth 2% of my pay.

 

[737 Pylt]

Unfortunately folks like 737Pylt have absolute control within ALPA. There is no process in place to restrain them. If you become ALPA, you will have the pleasure of being represented according to 737Pylt's whims.

You LIE so much, you must be in management training. If you truly believe that, then you have no business piloting an aircraft!

One wonders how the Mesaba guys feel about their friends at Northwest who have voted against providing strike benefits to Mesaba pilots, while pushing for an alter ego airline to perform the flying which was flown by Mesaba.

Again liar, twist the truth. It was ONE person who voted against it!

The real reason why 737Pylt and General Lee hate the RJDC with such passion is that the RJDC has been effective in restraining much of the predatory bargaining that has gone on at US Air and Northwest.

The real reason I hate you guys is that you are all liars (you have yet to tell the truth about anything) and SCABS! Actually, you're worse than scabs, at least scabs wait til you're out of work to do your flying!

The Skywest pilots have been unwitting beneficiaries, but with the ASA purchase you now are getting an introduction to playing in the sandbox with the 900 pound gorilla going by the handle of "DALPA."

And you wonder why your group is hated so much. Even regional pilots that you so called "represent," dispise you and your ilk! Let's face it, your group has NEVER told the truth about anything. Your suit is based upon GREED, plain and simple. People (and I use that term loosely) like you are just plain old "lazy" in this industry. Rather than work for it, you would rather just sue to get what is not yours! Your group has populated lies, and twisted facts that has done nothing but waste my unions hard worked for $$. We have a bigger fight, with management, and you group is nothing more than a flaring hemmoriod that pops up just when you think its safe to sit down. You wouldn't know how to tell the truth if it bit you on the nose, but we've grown to expect that from you. Your "pass benefits" thread is just another example of how you and your group LIES to try to get suckers to feel sorry for your pathetic cause. Our (DL's) scope is the most leniant in the industry, yet you pricks cry wolf! Keep up with your lies, if it makes you happy, so much better for you!
737
rant over

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

One wonders how the Mesaba guys feel about their friends at Northwest who have voted against providing strike benefits to Mesaba pilots, while pushing for an alter ego airline to perform the flying which was flown by Mesaba.."

Fins, This is false and you know it. It was a mistake and misunderstanding... Play Fair.....

Answer the following....

Again, what is the RJDC doing besides lawsuits.....?

While you may believe your efforts are true, is a consequence that the RJDC is playing into managements agenda of lowering the wage & work rules for the piloting profession? We want to lift ourselves up, not keep us down....

What does the current economice situation have to do with the existance of the RJDC?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins,

I say to you, that the issue has been raised...but HOW do you propose to get back to the basics... In addition, what exactly is the RJDC doing besides sueing.

ALPA's representational "race to the bottom" is the same structure that brought us UAL2000 and DAL2001. Seemed to work fine then. If you want to change the structure around, then all will be complaining when the boom and growth return, that thier pay is limited by the national structure. If the UAL guys return to super profitiablity why should thier negotiations be limited by another company that is doing poorly?

The problem is management runs thier agenda and all expect ALPA to counter free market forces (even Greenspan can't do that!) and reverse upper management decisions....

Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines!

I'm not "the" expert. Others in ALPA and the RJDC are a lot smarter than I am but I will give it a shot:
1. ALPA needs an effective judiciary branch where a pilot, or group, can resolve grievances dealing with the harmful activities of another competing pilot group.
2. ALPA needs powerful and effective National leadership to restrain the predatory inclinations of pilots against one another.
3. ALPA needs to reform its constitution and bylaws to restore its merger and fragmentation polisies, as well as the restoration of other sections which were removed specifically to enable predatory bargaining. The changes just prior to the 2000 BOD meeting serves as a partial example.
4. ALPA needs to philosophically return to the days when our union did not want low pilot wages to enable one airline to unfairly compete against another airline. As you know, ALPA has endorsed every single concessionary contract in force today.
5. Once the floor is established we need to return to jacking up the house, one corner at a time, by establishing a pattern of only endorsing progressive contracts.
6. The union needs to stop shinking and grow.

Your examples of UAL's 2000 contract and Delta's 2001 contract were not restrained by ASA's 1998 contract, or any rights given to any ASA, or Comair pilots. In my opinion ALPA today could not obtain those contracts because it lacks the organization to achieve them (gutting the Constitution and removing the rules tends to cause any organization to begin running amok). I don't know how having a fair union representing all pilots equally would cause a reduction in ALPA's bargaining ability. After all, aren't the Delta and Northwest pilots currently negotiating rates that are less than the established regional rates? It appears to me that ALPA's acceptance of alter ego competition has resulted in more competitors driving the price lower.

If your point is that ALPA should be able to negotiate higher wages for mainline on the backs of First Officers at ASA and Skywest, then I disagree with you. Mainline pilots do feel like theirs are the only "real" jobs and that small jet jobs are simply for losers and a place to serve an apprenticeship. I disagree strongly with that view and believe that all of us are in a profession together. Sure mainline pilots should make more, but they should not recieve a bonus for selling their scope to an underpaid regional pilot.

The RJDC lawsuit not only seeks to roll back the clock, it provides a stiff penalty if ALPA fails to take corrective action. The litigants sked nicely, attended LEC and MEC meetings, proposed resolutions, took their arguements to ALPA National, the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee and the President of the union. ALPA refused to take any corrective action, effectively telling the pilots they really should negotiate with the Delta MEC to solve an ALPA problem.

Again, I'm not "the" expert, but clearly ALPA could do a lot better if it listened to the input of all of its members instead of a select few. That is the nature of a Democratic union. Like our nation, ALPA can follow the will of the majority, while protecting the rights of the minority.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, This is false and you know it. It was a mistake and misunderstanding... Play Fair.....

Answer the following....

Again, what is the RJDC doing besides lawsuits.....?

While you may believe your efforts are true, is a consequence that the RJDC is playing into managements agenda of lowering the wage & work rules for the piloting profession? We want to lift ourselves up, not keep us down....

What does the current economice situation have to do with the existance of the RJDC?

I just got a copy of the vote in the e-mail. If there was an error, I have not seen the correction posted. Given the other activities at Northwest, I assumed the vote was correct, but if you have different information, I will defer to you on the matter.

ALPA would not provide any solution outside of litigation. Believe me, funding litigation to try to fix our union was a last resort. That is part of the problem, if a pilot has a beef against the company, ALPA will gladly fight management. If you have a beef with the union, you have to file a lawsuit.

Current economics have nothing to do with the RJDC. The RJDC came together in 1999 and 2000 as a result of changes ALPA made to our Constitution and the way the changes were immediately employed by some MEC's to harm other pilot groups. ALPA's leadership problems are not the result of the current economic environment, but the terrible state of our industry has made the problems in ALPA much more obvious (and harmful) to our members.

From a SkyWest pilot's perspective, is it better to be represented by someone who represents the interests of the SkyWest pilots, or is it better to be represented by ALPA, who pushes the interests of the Delta pilots? There are a lot of Delta pilots who feel it would be better for Skywest pilots if Skywest did not exist - after all regional jobs are not "real" jobs.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

No, we have the Railway Labor Act on our side. The scenario that you laid out could never happen. For as many faults as the RLA has, the company can't just change our contract at will.

Hey,
ssterno is a kool-aid, drinker of the first order, he only becomes active when the union drives start up. He trolls around California in a brazilldo, doing locals and living the good life. He is probabally thinks he will spend his airline career flying in one time zone and sleeping at home, 'till he retires. Let him come out to a domicile not so near, and fly like the rest of us, time zone shufflers. Every kool-aid drinker softens when they come out and fly like the rest of us, I do not deny him the right to fly the lifestyle he does, but when he spouts the $hit like the above statements, I just want to give him a serious talking to and follow it up with a very serious letter.
PBR

 

[John Pennekamp]

Fins and 737, why don't you knock it off. You're scaring the SKW guys away! 737, it takes two to fight, why engage him?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

A lawyer you hire for your wrongful termination lawsuit.

Hey,
"at-will" employment, the only one who will win will be the laywer who cashes your check. And if you are dead because of "pilot pushing", well who really cares, you are dead.
PBR

 

[~~~^~~~]

The real reason I hate you guys is that you are all liars (you have yet to tell the truth about anything) and SCABS! Actually, you're worse than scabs, at least scabs wait til you're out of work to do your flying!

I perform the flying your MEC negotiated, that your pilot group ratified and that ALPA endorsed. My pilot group was not allowed to participte, or vote on, your agreement with your management. So how exactly did I, or any pilot at ASA, or Skywest, steal your flying? How exactly are we taking your flying when you negotiated it away?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins and 737, why don't you knock it off. You're scaring the SKW guys away! 737, it takes two to fight, why engage him?

If 737Pylt lets the Skywest guys see what they are in for - then this thread has provided has provided beneficial information for their consideration.

 

[737 Pylt]

I perform the flying your MEC negotiated, that your pilot group ratified and that ALPA endorsed. My pilot group was not allowed to participte, or vote on, your agreement with your management. So how exactly did I, or any pilot at ASA, or Skywest, steal your flying? How exactly are we taking your flying when you negotiated it away?

I have no problem with the flyin you are doing, it is the lawsuit, that you are trying take away the flying that I am doing! Your suit is about trying to take something that doesn't belong to you. $$ and flying.

From a SkyWest pilot's perspective, is it better to be represented by someone who represents the interests of the SkyWest pilots, or is it better to be represented by ALPA, who pushes the interests of the Delta pilots? There are a lot of Delta pilots who feel it would be better for Skywest pilots if Skywest did not exist - after all regional jobs are not "real" jobs.

OK then here's an idea, next time you have an altitude bust, or a hold short bust, or what ever.....Just dial the rjdc and let them represent you. I'm sure Haber is well versed in the F.A.R.'s so that he can see to it that violation won't happen! Maybe he can sue for you claiming that its hurting your career, and get some mega $$ from the FAA! He might even make you a 777 captain as promised by your leadership and DF!
As far as the regional jobs comment...I just consider the source. How many legacy pilots began their roots as regional pilot? But hey, they way you pukes like to lie, its the norm!
737

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I think some pilots at SKYW may be watching the situation at NWA closely. ALPA appears anxious to once again abrogate seniority at a regional just the way they did at the Airways WO's. If ALPA really wants to recruit SKYW pilots they should knock that crap off and respect seniority at all ALPA carriers, not just mainline. It's particularly ironic that the only J4J agreement that does not sacrifice regional pilot seniority and career progression was negotiated by a non-union carrier.