Skywest Alpa Drive

[LAMESAUCE]

my question is...why do skywest pilots think they NEED a union? what does a union carrier have that they don't have (other than magazine, legal/medical coverage) ?

 

[WWEfan]

I heard there was an ASA ALPA rep up in Chicago today. Word on the street is the ORD guys are gung ho for a change in representation. In my own experience talking to SKYW pilots there is an overwhelming majority in favor of ALPA. Good luck guys.

 

[bonds73]

The union believers push the legal / medical because it would be intellectually dishonest to say ALPA would be able to make any other improvements. I believe the opposite would be true. Those who come to Skywest from ALPA carriers immediatly feel a positive difference in culture. You can scoff - but I hear it ALL the time. For that reason I believe the drive will fail. Come see for yourself. For all you Skywest ALPA wannabees - I fear you have the "grass must be greener syndrome" - you either don't know or don't remember what it is like elsewhere.

 

[CFIT]

I think it would be interesting to know how many of the SkyWest ALPA supporters were previous ALPA?

Most of those with previous ALPA I have talked with said it sucked.

 

[rtmcfi]

The union believers push the legal / medical because it would be intellectually dishonest to say ALPA would be able to make any other improvements. I believe the opposite would be true. Those who come to Skywest from ALPA carriers immediatly feel a positive difference in culture. You can scoff - but I hear it ALL the time. For that reason I believe the drive will fail. Come see for yourself. For all you Skywest ALPA wannabees - I fear you have the "grass must be greener syndrome" - you either don't know or don't remember what it is like elsewhere.

Would it would be every bit as intellectually dishonest to say that SAPA has represented the pilots effectively? When you state you believe the opposite to be true, do you think the legal and medical benefits will get worse under ALPA?

I would imagine those who come to SkyWest do feel an immediate positive difference in culture. I would also imagine, that this gleaming shiny ball of glowing energy starts to dull and tarnish with time. The new hires slowly learn of the bucket system, reflows, hassles with pay. After spending the better part of reserve trying to decipher the 700 BHO, I would imagine that the tarnish starts to build. After getting screwed over by PBS for the umpteenth time, and having vacation periods blacked out, the shine would dull a bit more. After hearing rumors of handwriting analysis, these new hires might start to question the effectiveness of there current representation.

I am guessing with your times, you are a captain. Remember, FO's are chameleons. They will tell you what you want to hear. If you are anti-ALPA, they will sniff it out a million miles away. They will wave the Anti-ALPA flag for you. No one wants to start four day disagreeing with someone who is in a position to give you a bad review. I am not saying you would do this, but you could. And with no union, the FO would have no recourse. So, when they fly with you, SCREW ALPA is the order of the day. Back at the crash-pad, where there is no fear of repercussion, they will let their true feelings show.

For those of you that are SkyWest ALPA bashers.... I fear you are afraid of what you don't understand, and/or have not experienced. I have seen both sides of the Union coin, and while ALPA is not perfect ( I am furious with Alpas stance on theage 65 argument) it is better than nothing. Currently the SkyWest pilots representation is worth what it costs.

 

[PCL_128]

After hearing rumors of handwriting analysis

I don't think that was just a rumor...

 

[bonds73]

WWE
- overwelming ? not even close - very luke (sp) warm ? maybe

RTM
- I will grant you the medical/legal, though I believe there are better ways to fund those programs than bringing on a union - however, you can't tell me that Skywest culture wouldn't be affected in the negative with ALPA. I hear the words " I can't believe people want to bring alpa over here" all the time - u can spin it how you want - but all drives in the past have failed - this one feels no different.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Do you mean if Freedom and Republic guys had representives to present their side for intergrating to one list like during a merger? That I'm not sure about. I doubt Freedom had any say since they weren't union prior to the one list.

I would imagine they're all now represented by the usual local domicile/region LECs. I believe ATL/MCO Freedom and IAD Mesa are represented by same LEC.

No, I mean was there a representational vote after the list integration? PCL 128 said ALPA says there has to be one, and I don't recall one for either Mesa/Freedom or CHQ/Republic.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think that was just a rumor...

PCL, have you found out yet whether or not there were representational votes after Freedom and Republic were negotiated into single lists with Mesa and CHQ? Just curious...

 

[sweptback]

I heard there was an ASA ALPA rep up in Chicago today. Word on the street is the ORD guys are gung ho for a change in representation. In my own experience talking to SKYW pilots there is an overwhelming majority in favor of ALPA. Good luck guys.

I have talked to many different SkyWest pilots, and they all say the same thing -- that ASA pilots are getting hosed. Most I talked to know that SkyWest could just as easily be the airline getting hosed in the blink of an eye. They know what is going on, and hopefully they will step up and do something about it. Otherwise there is a fine line between being outraged and looking the other way if it benefits you.

 

[rtmcfi]

WWE
- overwelming ? not even close - very luke (sp) warm ? maybe

RTM
- I will grant you the medical/legal, though I believe there are better ways to fund those programs than bringing on a union - however, you can't tell me that Skywest culture wouldn't be affected in the negative with ALPA. I hear the words " I can't believe people want to bring alpa over here" all the time - u can spin it how you want - but all drives in the past have failed - this one feels no different.

In the event of a successful ALPA drive at SkyWest, I hope the positive culture you describe is unchanged. Why do you think the culture would be so dramatically and permanently destroyed? What would force this change? I am pretty sure the pilots at SkyWest get to elect there own reps. I don't think that ALPA national elects the reps. If the SkyWest Pilots so desired, they could elect all of there current SAPA reps to be the MEC. How would this destroy the relations with SGU? Would the title of "ALPA rep" replacing "SAPA rep" cause an instant animosity from BH and JA? Would they start treating the pilots worse because of it? How do you specifically see the culture changing?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, have you found out yet whether or not there were representational votes after Freedom and Republic were negotiated into single lists with Mesa and CHQ? Just curious...

Sorry for the delay, John, but I needed to research the answer to your question in relation to Mesa/Freedom. There was not a vote when dealing with Republic/CHQ because Republic wasn't an operational airline when the deal was signed. Republic was simply a threat, not an actual airline. Bedford had the certificate, but not an actual airline operation going.

With Mesa/Freedom, a vote wasn't necessary because the NMB handed down a ruling right after the contract was signed that Mesa and Freedom constitued a "single transportation system" In other words, ALPA was succesful in our single-carrier petition in this case. In the eyes of the NMB, there weren't two carriers to merge, so no new vote was needed.

 

[SkyNation]

In the event of a successful ALPA drive at SkyWest, I hope the positive culture you describe is unchanged. Why do you think the culture would be so dramatically and permanently destroyed?

Because of the inherent adversarial environment that comes with a union on property, the 'it's us vs. them' mentality that it fosters and nurtures. (yes, there are a very few exceptions)

What would force this change? I am pretty sure the pilots at SkyWest get to elect there own reps. I don't think that ALPA national elects the reps. If the SkyWest Pilots so desired, they could elect all of there current SAPA reps to be the MEC. How would this destroy the relations with SGU? Would the title of "ALPA rep" replacing "SAPA rep" cause an instant animosity from BH and JA? Would they start treating the pilots worse because of it? How do you specifically see the culture changing?

BH et al in management have all made it clear they don't want a union on property. Why do you think that is? if you subscribe to the Unionista view, you'll say that it's purely a pride issue, that they don't want to give up any control. If you're a realist, however, you'll recognize that they don't want it because it could negatively impact profits, limit future possibilities, and generally muck up the system that has put us in the position we are in now in the industry (haters alert!!! this is your cue to rant about how bad is sucks here and mock the 'position' we're in).

management are business people, plain and simple. if it would benefit business, or have no effect, why would they care? if it would hurt the 'business' which ends up hurting the WHOLE company (yes, we are part of the company), then they would fight vigorously against it.

ask yourself this: which regional do you look at that is represented by ALPA and say to yourself 'man, I wish we were in their position'? For me, and the majority of SkyWest pilots, we don't see a one.

 

[jbDC9]

I am just counting down the days until we can party our brains out in chicago when the drive fails.

Too late for that dickweed, you don't appear to have a brain. Idiot.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

BH et al in management have all made it clear they don't want a union on property. Why do you think that is? if you subscribe to the Unionista view, you'll say that it's purely a pride issue, that they don't want to give up any control. If you're a realist, however, you'll recognize that they don't want it because it could negatively impact profits, limit future possibilities, and generally muck up the system that has put us in the position we are in now in the industry (haters alert!!! this is your cue to rant about how bad is sucks here and mock the 'position' we're in).

management are business people, plain and simple. if it would benefit business, or have no effect, why would they care? if it would hurt the 'business' which ends up hurting the WHOLE company (yes, we are part of the company), then they would fight vigorously against it.

ask yourself this: which regional do you look at that is represented by ALPA and say to yourself 'man, I wish we were in their position'? For me, and the majority of SkyWest pilots, we don't see a one.

If they're the "employer of choice" as they claim, with an open door policy...why would they be so against ALPA?? "Negatively impact profits" by actually giving employees a COLA again so we stop going backwards every year?????

 

[CFIT]

In the event of a successful ALPA drive at SkyWest, I hope the positive culture you describe is unchanged. Why do you think the culture would be so dramatically and permanently destroyed? What would force this change? I am pretty sure the pilots at SkyWest get to elect there own reps. I don't think that ALPA national elects the reps. If the SkyWest Pilots so desired, they could elect all of there current SAPA reps to be the MEC. How would this destroy the relations with SGU? Would the title of "ALPA rep" replacing "SAPA rep" cause an instant animosity from BH and JA? Would they start treating the pilots worse because of it? How do you specifically see the culture changing?

This is precisely one of the aspects that needs to be adressed!

I feel things here are pretty good, some feel overall this place sucks, but from what I have been told during the time it takes to get a contract, I fear a living hell!

The culture here will change overnight, and our policy manual will be used via management bias for years. ASA is coming on 5 years of contract talks, what makes you think it would be any better for SkyWest Airlines?

This is a position of no background or history; there hasn't been an airline of this size ( a major airline) that has adopted ALPA within the last decade.

Is there any planning platform from ALPA for the transition, it should be very consise and distributed?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry for the delay, John, but I needed to research the answer to your question in relation to Mesa/Freedom. There was not a vote when dealing with Republic/CHQ because Republic wasn't an operational airline when the deal was signed. Republic was simply a threat, not an actual airline. Bedford had the certificate, but not an actual airline operation going.

With Mesa/Freedom, a vote wasn't necessary because the NMB handed down a ruling right after the contract was signed that Mesa and Freedom constitued a "single transportation system" In other words, ALPA was succesful in our single-carrier petition in this case. In the eyes of the NMB, there weren't two carriers to merge, so no new vote was needed.

Thanks for the info.

So ASA and PCL could either file single carrier petitions and negotiate single lists, or they could negotiate single lists and have a representational vote subsequently. IMO, both ASA and PCL need to pursue one of these two options. Is PCL pursuing either option?

For anyone interested, here is a link to the NMB filing:

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2003/30n040.pdf

 

[John Pennekamp]

This is a position of no background or history; there hasn't been an airline of this size ( a major airline) that has adopted ALPA within the last decade.

Continental? FedEx?

 

[sweptback]

Continental? FedEx?

Now John, you know better than to let facts get in the way of CFIT's argument.

 

[rtmcfi]

BH et al in management have all made it clear they don't want a union on property. Why do you think that is? if you subscribe to the Unionista view, you'll say that it's purely a pride issue, that they don't want to give up any control.

I guess I'm a Unionista then.

If you're a realist, however, you'll recognize that they don't want it because it could negatively impact profits, limit future possibilities, and generally muck up the system that has put us in the position we are in now in the industry (haters alert!!! this is your cue to rant about how bad is sucks here and mock the 'position' we're in

).

I would say I am a realist. I am still really interested to hear how this nebulous overshadowing UNION that lurks in the shadows will destroy the juggernaut that is SkyWest Inc. One would be foolish to mock SkyWests position. The company is obviously in great shape. I am not trying to start an us vs. them thing, but the truth of the matter is that JA et al are advancing their QOL and income, and the SkyWest Pilots are falling behind. What benefits the goose should benefit the gander. I understand that life is good at SkyWest, but I also see the foundation that built the current Skywest starting to crack. How many members of upper management have left recently?

management are business people, plain and simple. if it would benefit business, or have no effect, why would they care? if it would hurt the 'business' which ends up hurting the WHOLE company (yes, we are part of the company), then they would fight vigorously against it.

And good businessmen they are. SkyWest has had astounding success. So has JA. His compensation has gone up 384% since 1995. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aEX_pE_M943M&refer=columnist_crystal

JA didn't get that kind of coin by being dumb. Do you think he might figure that a Union would demand a little bigger piece of the pie than they are currently getting? Would the Union be wrong to do so? How much has the SkyWest Pilots compensation risen during that period? The executives at SkyWest have done exceedingly well. Since pilots are part of the company, and the company is doing well, shouldn't they benefit as well. Of course management likes the current system.
SAPA- "can we get a raise?"
MGMNT - "NO"
SAPA/ "ok"

It does not take a genius to figure out why management does not like the idea of a union.

SkyWest mgmt like to crow about their relationship with labor. If this positive relationship is so valuable why would they turn their backs on the pilots if they chose legally recognized representation?

ask yourself this: which regional do you look at that is represented by ALPA and say to yourself 'man, I wish we were in their position'?

I agree with you there. But also, ask which group of pilots would have been better off with no union....

 

[theo]

I agree with you there. But also, ask which group of pilots would have been better off with no union....

Well, Skywest pilots have been better off without a union. No dues to pay, plenty of growth and the associated opportunities, ie; upgrades, better lines, increase in compensation. I would suggest that most pilots in the industry would agree, I believe that is why so many pilots, even on Flight Info, refer to Skywest as one of the higher quality Regionals to work for. I doubt you will find a majority of the pilots at Skywest anxious to adopt ALPA.

 

[mavdog]

Of course management likes the current system.
SAPA- "can we get a raise?"
MGMNT - "NO"
SAPA/ "ok"

I'm just wondering how you think its going to go with ALPA on property...

ALPA - "Can we get a raise?"
MGMNT - "NO"
ALPA - "#$%$#&*"

Hmmm... maybe that's how the culture at SkyWest will be destroyed. I agree that if ALPA is willing to work with management and vice versa, there won't be much of a change, but ALPA doesn't have a very good track record and they still end up getting hosed in the end.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Well, Skywest pilots have been better off without a union. No dues to pay, plenty of growth and the associated opportunities, ie; upgrades, better lines, increase in compensation. I would suggest that most pilots in the industry would agree, I believe that is why so many pilots, even on Flight Info, refer to Skywest as one of the higher quality Regionals to work for. I doubt you will find a majority of the pilots at Skywest anxious to adopt ALPA.

Yes, the term is "coat tail riding" and that never lasts forever.

 

[theo]

Yes, the term is "coat tail riding" and that never lasts forever.

Wrong, the term is "Free Market" and we have a whole country based upon it. Seems to be pretty successful so far.

 

[MYFpilot]

After hearing rumors of handwriting analysis

I don't think that was just a rumor...

This is true, in-fact... Looks like they may bring back the "handwriting Annalist"... Graffiti is appearing in the cockpits of Brasilias out west. (the statements are rather unprofessional, IMHO) We (Brasilia Pilots) were warned that the perpetrator, if/when found will be fired. Just a word of caution, I'd probably cut out magazine letters and glue them together next time.

For more information about the previous handwriting analysis incident please visit...

Don Douglas V. SkyWest


P.S. He was NOT in favor of bringing a union on property. His feelings have since changed considerably!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Wrong, the term is "Free Market" and we have a whole country based upon it. Seems to be pretty successful so far.

Yes, until your company decides to replace you with cheaper workers and you have no protection.

Go ask the 3500 Circuit City employees who just got told they're losing their jobs and being replaced with cheaper labor. It was on the news this morning. It could happen at Skywest tomorrow.

"Free Market Economy" only benefits the corporations and managers. It does nothing for the workers or the average citizen, aka the "middle class". The middle class has been suffering and sliding downhill since World War II. If you call that successful, than there's not much else I can say.

 

[HelloNewman]

Wrong, the term is "Free Market" and we have a whole country based upon it. Seems to be pretty successful so far.

Yep sure does, I see no reason to be ashamed of "coat tail riding" anyway. You gotta do what you gotta do. Having a union would be a huge burden for our wallet (2% dues) and our morale (look how happy the unionized regionals are). You also have to look at the fact that we are above most regionals on the 50 seat pay. We are average on the 70 seat pay and we have no aircraft with 90 seats in them. I would say "coat tail riding" has worked great for us and should continue to work great for the next 35+ years.

At SkyWest we are not be ashamed at all to be called freeloaders or coat tail riders. Why pay union dues when we can let the dues of other airlines work for us? I would have to say we are comfortable waiting to see what others can accomplish first then match our pay with theirs. Playing the follower is much safer than playing the leader. The one good thing is on the off chance that we do get a union the NMB does not seem to release pilots for a strike. This is a good thing for job security, QOL and compensation. The only problem is as long as you threaten a strike the company will punish you for it. You will lose job security and QOL. Those are two of the very goals the union hold so dear yet a strike has the potential to make those worse.

 

[theo]

Yes, until your company decides to replace you with cheaper workers and you have no protection.

Go ask the 3500 Circuit City employees who just got told they're losing their jobs and being replaced with cheaper labor. It was on the news this morning. It could happen at Skywest tomorrow.

"Free Market Economy" only benefits the corporations and managers. It does nothing for the workers or the average citizen, aka the "middle class". The middle class has been suffering and sliding downhill since World War II. If you call that successful, than there's not much else I can say.

Free Market Economy is based upon supply and demand. When your wages become uncompetitive then eventually something will be done to correct that situation. Just look at all of the legacy carriers as an example of what happens when you outpace the marketplace. Unions try to circumvent that process by creating a closed market where they control the supply. Which is a great idea if it worked. Unfortunatly they have become less and less successful in their attempts and as a result have failed to deliver on their promises time and time again.

Skywest has been around for quite a few years now without a union. Generally the people are and have been happy. We all realize that no view is shared by 100% of the people 100% of the time, but generally a union at Skywest is going to be a hard sell.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Free Market Economy is based upon supply and demand. When your wages become uncompetitive then eventually something will be done to correct that situation. Just look at all of the legacy carriers as an example of what happens when you outpace the marketplace. Unions try to circumvent that process by creating a closed market where they control the supply. Which is a great idea if it worked. Unfortunatly they have become less and less successful in their attempts and as a result have failed to deliver on their promises time and time again.

Then how do you explain socialist economies like those in Europe and Canada where the unions are very strong? Their economies are prospering, their businesses are prospering, the middle class is prospering. In many countries, the people enjoy a much better quality of life than we do.

It's been proven time and time again that free market only benefits the wealthy corporate robber-barons.

Skywest has been around for quite a few years now without a union. Generally the people are and have been happy. We all realize that no view is shared by 100% of the people 100% of the time, but generally a union at Skywest is going to be a hard sell.

I disagree. Skywest aint the mom & pop operation it used to be. At one time, I agree a union was unecessary, but as the company grows, it becomes more important. Skywest may have finally reached that critical mass.

 

[ohplease!]

Then how do you explain socialist economies like those in Europe and Canada where the unions are very strong? Their economies are prospering, their businesses are prospering, the middle class is prospering. In many countries, the people enjoy a much better quality of life than we do.

It's been proven time and time again that free market only benefits the wealthy corporate robber-barons.

.

D@mn! You went and blew it. I was actually giving you more credit than you obviously deserve for being intelligent in another thread. If you truly believe that ANY COUNTRY in Europe or Canada have a better QOL or a middle class growing at a quicker rate than here, you obviously don't deserve the credit I was giving you.

D@mn man! Just D@mn.