Skybus wanabee's, think long and hard!

[HalinTexas]

W has stymied everything that a president can, except his oil income.

Like what? I want evidence. Laws he's submitted or forced through Congress, executive orders, specific appointees that have followed his direction and/or judgements by judges he's appointed.

Secondly, what oil income? He's been out of the business for years. In fact, he was criticized for being a failed oil man. Note: No one in Texas was a serious oil man unless he failed at it at least once. More failed than succeeded.

Let's stop the political diatribe.

 

[FADEC]

Just like the JB pilots that got their options?

Sure, I agree sweetening it with stock options helps, but what about the subsequent pilots hired after this goes away.. it's not like a) they're going to do that for ever, and b) the stock will IPO for every new hire.

In the end, this company, like Ryan Air is trying to define "Airline Pilot" down.. first it was the LCC's and now some of them are starting to mature into real airlines, and now we're getting the likes of Virgin and Skybus! What's next? Really.. Bring in pilots from Malaysia and have them crew a 777 for a month then fly home for a week off for $1500/mo?

So V70T5 whats your solution to this particular problem. Perhaps you should look at your own company and its poor payscales before you dare to judge anyone else. You fly a wide body for Gemini yet the last time I looked a Fedex widebody FO made $128 per hour compared to your second year $64. Hell you spout off about LCCs but forget to mention that companies like Airtran and Jetblue blow your payrates out of the water and don't even try to compare the QOL and workrule differences. You are an absolute hypocrite.

 

[HA25]

So V70T5 whats your solution to this particular problem. Perhaps you should look at your own company and its poor payscales before you dare to judge anyone else. You fly a wide body for Gemini yet the last time I looked a Fedex widebody FO made $128 per hour compared to your second year $64. Hell you spout off about LCCs but forget to mention that companies like Airtran and Jetblue blow your payrates out of the water and don't even try to compare the QOL and workrule differences. You are an absolute hypocrite.

Several answers:

first, my company is a small 8 airplane, bottom feeder with a market value of about 30 million dollars and operates ACMI which is historically lower pay.. It's not a well capitalized upstart with a huge order of multi-million dollar airplanes. Apple to oranges, plain and simple. In the realm of ACMI we're about average if not above in that we have a great schedule, home base crew, business class travel to most of our trips, and most of our captains are making well into 6 figures, with our senior FO's making about $75-80K and some overtime whores are making close to $200,000 working 20 days a month and bidding high block time lines.. this isn't do defend our poor pay, we'll never pay Fedex/UPS money as we don't take in anywhere near the revenue, and this is what mediators look at when we demand higher wages. We could pay better this is for sure, but we're fresh off a BK which also doesn't help. Look at the payscales of the legacy's out of BK.. we're about 10% lower than UAL.. and that also makes it VERY hard to demand better pay when they are stuck where they are.

As for QOL.. apart from the business class travel and home base I've already mentioned, we've got a 12 hour call out on reserve while on the road, and 3 hours at home.. we've got no 5 leg days, most are simple 1 and 2 at the most. We've got a place to sleep on the airplane if the tip is long. We have hard duty day limits of 16 hours, and we have generous overtime provisions. It'd hardly say our QOL is worse than many smaller LCC's.. barring WN maybe and if AirTran get a new contract maybe them.

All that said, I am frustrated by the fact that we can't raise our pay, because we're told that other non-union ACMI's will step in and take our contracts, since we'd become non-competitive. This goes back to my point.. Centurion pays 1/3 less than we do on the DC-10, as do other small players and this is the type of downward pressure that we're all fearful.. it only take one or two players to drop the bar, and the rest can't raise it!

So that answers that..


AS for GW.. I voted for him, and regret it.. I was one of those "Single Issue" voters as a practicing Roman Catholic, I couldn't hack voting for a militant pro-abortion politician (as sadly most dems are). Ideally, we'd get a conservative democrat running or a Pat Buchanan, but sadly the powers that be will not allow it. They like this bs divide we are forced choose between.

next election, assuming it's not Hillary, I might just vote Dem. GW's war hasn't helped my desire to stay with the R much either.

 

[Fly4hire]

That won't be too far off! Except it will be in the form of open skies and cabotage!

It's a real threat you speak of.

What pilots from Malaysia? The entire Indian and Asian sub-continent area are desperate for pilots to fill seats. The qualifications for ex-pat pilots keep dropping as they look to get crews to fuel their growth. There won't be a supply of pilots to do what you suggest for many, many years, if ever. A bigger danger is them upping the wages/benefits and poaching pilots from US carriers....

 

[Fly4hire]

Give me a break, I don't think politics has anything to do with the fact that ALPA couldn't and wouldn't do their job-- protecting their union members from paycuts, furloughs, pension dissolution and capitulating to every whim. If a work group had some cahunas and stood up against their respective airlines from doing what they did, maybe y'all wouldn't be in this mess...

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I can't wait to hear you cry for ALPA help when DAL staples you....

 

[Andy]

What pilots from Malaysia? The entire Indian and Asian sub-continent area are desperate for pilots to fill seats. The qualifications for ex-pat pilots keep dropping as they look to get crews to fuel their growth. There won't be a supply of pilots to do what you suggest for many, many years, if ever. A bigger danger is them upping the wages/benefits and poaching pilots from US carriers....

Thanks, I'm in total agreement. Too many US pilots fail to realize that we are rapidly becoming THE LOWEST paid pilots in the world. While the rest of the world's pilots see large pay raises, US pilots continue to give concessions.

The Malaysian pilots should rightly be concerned about US pilots coming over and doing the flying for cheaper than the locals.

 

[HA25]

Thanks, I'm in total agreement. Too many US pilots fail to realize that we are rapidly becoming THE LOWEST paid pilots in the world. While the rest of the world's pilots see large pay raises, US pilots continue to give concessions.

The Malaysian pilots should rightly be concerned about US pilots coming over and doing the flying for cheaper than the locals.

Andy, that's pure sci-fi

in India, Jet Airways pilots that are Indian are paid 1/5 the pay the Ex-Pats make, and Malaysian pilot make about 1/3 the US pay.. There is indeed a shortage of pilots in the Asian subcontinent, but that is a shortage of EXPERIENCED (read, 1000 hours in type), captains and not pilots... Just as with Singapore airlines at first needing ex-pats to spool up their operations, and now they're almost 100% natives... the same will happen SOON with the Malaysian and Indian pilot jobs.. and THEN.. you'll have a real problem on your hands, as you'll have EXPERIENCED pilots from the 3rd world willing to come here and undercut Delta, United and even UPS!

 

[Aerosurfer]

Give me a break, I don't think politics has anything to do with the fact that ALPA couldn't and wouldn't do their job-- protecting their union members from paycuts, furloughs, pension dissolution and capitulating to every whim. If a work group had some cahunas and stood up against their respective airlines from doing what they did, maybe y'all wouldn't be in this mess...

UMMMMM no..... reguardless of your party stance, its very political. Ask any Comair guys what happened last January. Contract got tossed AND a judge barred them from a strike. Mesaba was the same although they came to a TA. The unions leave much to be desired, no doubt, but when the Gov't overrides all and side with the company, then a change need to come. We need a more labor friend Capital

 

[HA25]

UMMMMM no..... reguardless of your party stance, its very political. Ask any Comair guys what happened last January. Contract got tossed AND a judge barred them from a strike. Mesaba was the same although they came to a TA. The unions leave much to be desired, no doubt, but when the Gov't overrides all and side with the company, then a change need to come. We need a more labor friend Capital

Correct.. anyone who thinks that politics has no effect on the power of a union (mediator appointments) has their head in the sand or is a political idiot. I will likely vote Dem this year ONLY for union reasons.. I'd rather be able to vote for a pro-union republican, but sadly they're all in bed with corporate bosses... and to be honest, so are many Dems.. pay close attention to who you vote for.. Bill Clinton was an example of a "Big business" dem.

 

[Allen1]

I just read this from the latest Airline Pilot (ALPA magazine) from the "Mail Bag" Section... Seems like I'm not the only one who thinks like this.


"We need to educate the next generation on the importance of protecting the profession. Why pilots shouldn't fly transport category airplanes for less than the standard union wage, for example. How doing that might make a pilot's prospects of flying for a legitimate ALPA airline doubtful and how by selling himself out, a pilot is actually selling out his pilot colleagues. How time is built on night freight or in an F16 and not in the cockpit of an A320 at $45,000 per year!
-Capt Rissel D. Roberts (Northwest)

(taken from the May 2007 ALPA Airline Pilot)

I like this new more militant ALPA..

comments?

Well they can talk about it all they want but until the airlines stop hiring guys from the ********************ty regionals or the other crappy places you're talking about guys will still go work there. I don't see Continental or Delta or any other major not hiring someone for where they have worked. As long as you know someone else already working there you'll get hired no matter where you have worked. Waiting to be proved wrong.

 

[The Victors]

to the captains out there just deny the jumpseat. I know that's a little childish, but it's a start. Let it get out that these pays levels are unacceptable and you'll can run into problems if you accept one of these jobs.

 

[crashpad]

Agreed!!! No Jumpseat For Skyp*ss Pilots Anywhere!!!!

 

[instructordude]

to the captains out there just deny the jumpseat. I know that's a little childish, but it's a start. Let it get out that these pays levels are unacceptable and you'll can run into problems if you accept one of these jobs.

Denying someone who is working hard for his money is pretty bad. My hats off to anyone willing to wwork and pay taxes in this great country.

 

[B737 Guy]

to the captains out there just deny the jumpseat. I know that's a little childish, but it's a start. Let it get out that these pays levels are unacceptable and you'll can run into problems if you accept one of these jobs.

By that statement it is quite obvious that you are not in aviation.
Starting a jumpseat war, nobody wins! What a moron!

 

[hoover]

"We need to educate the next generation on the importance of protecting the profession. Why pilots shouldn't fly transport category airplanes for less than the standard union wage, for example. How doing that might make a pilot's prospects of flying for a legitimate ALPA airline doubtful and how by selling himself out, a pilot is actually selling out his pilot colleagues. How time is built on night freight or in an F16 and not in the cockpit of an A320 at $45,000 per year! -Capt Rissel D. Roberts (Northwest)

A "legitimate ALPA carrier!?" Give me a break! How many pilots does ALPA employ? How many airplanes does ALPA own? NONE!!

It's one thing to collectively negotiate for improvements in working conditions and to work for improvements in safety. It's quite another to position yourself as morally or ethically superior to others, especially considering ALPA's overall ineffectiveness in the last couple of decades.

This guy doesn't care about the next generation of pilots, or even his own peers. All he cares about is preserving the status quo until he retires. He is just trying to hang on to his fat job and way of life. If he REALLY cared about "the profession" he'd do something himself, rather than suggesting that someone else do it. And that is what his suggestion really comes down to. He want's someone else to stand tall, so that he can then stand on that person's shoulders in order to keep his own head above water.

 

[HA25]

This guy doesn't care about the next generation of pilots, or even his own peers. All he cares about is preserving the status quo until he retires. He is just trying to hang on to his fat job and way of life. If he REALLY cared about "the profession" he'd do something himself, rather than suggesting that someone else do it. And that is what his suggestion really comes down to. He want's someone else to stand tall, so that he can then stand on that person's shoulders in order to keep his own head above water.

Look in the mirror.. we all should.

 

[Jetjockey]

By that statement it is quite obvious that you are not in aviation.
Starting a jumpseat war, nobody wins! What a moron!

Yeah, I sure don't want to limit my jumpseat possibilities into CMH (sarcasm). I agree to a point, a jumpseat war is no good. I say don't even start agreements with them. Without a jumpseat agreement, there is no war to fight. They just wouldn't be on anyone's list.

 

[The Victors]

By that statement it is quite obvious that you are not in aviation.
Starting a jumpseat war, nobody wins! What a moron!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Delta rules!

 

[B737 Guy]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Delta rules!

This is the exact reason I don't visit this site any more. Too many smartasses!
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
How does that have anything to do with not allowing ANYONE on the jumpseat?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Correct.. anyone who thinks that politics has no effect on the power of a union (mediator appointments) has their head in the sand or is a political idiot. I will likely vote Dem this year ONLY for union reasons.. I'd rather be able to vote for a pro-union republican, but sadly they're all in bed with corporate bosses... and to be honest, so are many Dems.. pay close attention to who you vote for.. Bill Clinton was an example of a "Big business" dem.

I realize this is straying from the original topic....perhaps political affiliation has some influence on mediator appointments but I don't see the Dems or Reps giving a hoot for any American worker. You don't hear much outcry from either party about jobs going to China or anywhere else outside the USA - neither party has done anything to curtail it. If they don't care about Joe Citizen at Widgets Manufacturing they aren't going to care about Joe Pilot at NWA. They're all about big/global business and bigger government.